[nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college science class for next semester

Wed May 22 18:04:13 UTC 2013

Hi Joshua and all,

I wanted to bring up another point somewhat related to what Dan and
others have said.  I think sometimes since we primarily hear about
discrimination pertaining to blind or otherwise disabled people that
we can forget the scope of the issue.  It seems important to me that
we gain wider perspective on these issues to better help us sort them
out ourselves, because in some ways we do have an advantage in that
respect.

In the first semester of last year I had a horrible philosophy
professor, and as far as public humiliation and discriminatory
comments in class go my situation was similar to Stacy's.  What was
shocking to me was that his comments were not limitted to me and my
blindness, he also openly made discriminatory remarks to international
students who used English dictionaries in class, a girl who clearly
was just not
getting the subject and struggling to understand the concepts and
reasonably didn't feel comfortable participating in discussion, and a
student who was Islamic.  As far as I know no other students filed any
reports on him with the exception of giving him very crappy
evaluations at the end of the semester, but his demeanor, (at least
with me), changed a lot after I told the chair of the department who
told the dean what was going on.  They seemed particularly shocked
that he was doing it with me, as from their talks with me I seemed
like I didn't do anything to bring this on, but neither did the other
students.

I bring this up because like others have said, some professors are
just jerks who don't always know how to be polite or reasonable with
students in general, not just blind ones.  I was apalled when my
professor would make condescending remarks like, "Do you understand,"
to the Chinese and Pollish students in my class (it was his tone more
than what he said) because it was like he was calling them stupid for
trying to take a class in a new country in a second language.  This
sort of thing can happen to any student who has a professor who finds
something to pick at; the positive thing about our case is that we can
change it.  Deans will take a student who says their professor is
discriminating on the basis of their disability seriously because an ADA lawsuit
is one of the last things they want to happen.  A professor could
always lie and say that language barriers or differences in culture
caused a student of a different country or religion to take offense
when it wasn't intended to save his own skin, but it's pretty
diffficult for him to weasle his way out of a claim made by a student
with a physical disability who is perfectly capable of knowing what he
said.  This is where we have the advantage; the department chair
understood that I certainly wasn't stupid and totally understood what
my professor was saying and how he was saying it, so unlike my foreign
and Islamic classmates it would have been pretty hard for the prof to
make up an excuse for his comments towards me.

I think Melissa and others mentioned the importance of bringing backup
and proof with you.  In my case I had a friend in the class who was as
floored about the comments as I was and agreed that the professor
needed to be stopped.  She was not international, was catholic like
most of the students at the university, and was not disabled so she
backed me up as a witness who didn't experience the discrimination
herself.  I think it was great bringing her along because it made it
clear that it wasn't just the blind student crying wolf.  In our case
the professor was also using some questionable grading practices, so
we brought along copies of our tests which showed he had given
different gradings on the same test questions with the same answers
and that the results weren't lining up.  When you meet with the dean
be polite, articulate, and let him know that you know this isn't okay
and that it needs to be resolved.  Bring along any proof you can find;
document the dates you have tried to get into contact with the
professor and any dates he's returned calls or made contact with you.
If you did get to speak to him what did he say to you?  If not, did
you leave a message and was the message ever returned?  For backup see
if your disability service office can vouch that they've tried to make
contact with little results as well.  That in itself should be hook,
line, and sinker for showing that he's really doing all he can to
discriminate and keep you from getting what you need.  This professor
has no right to do these things and needs to be stopped.  He has no
right to pick and choose his students or refuse entry into his class,
and he needs to treat all students with the same amount of dignity and
respect.  Part of his job, whether he likes it or not, involves
working with other faculty in different departments including
disability services as needed, so he really needs to open up the lines
of communication with them and you in order to get you what you need
for the course.

I think all the other advice given on this thread has been golden.  Do
what you have to do to get into the class you need.  As frustrating
and silly as this all might be, try to bear in mind that this is a
much bigger issue that we're lucky to have a hand in changing.  It
might seem like an odd concept at the time, but it really helped me
stay positive when I was trying to work through my philosophy issues.
Also keep in mind that this could potentially open the door for a
future blind student to take this class, and you could potentially
change this professor by teaching him that blind people are capable
and competent students who can be successful even in visual subjects
if given an equal chance at success.  Good luck.

On 5/20/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Arielle,
> Thanks. Oh, it was in the president's report. I'll check it out!
> I agree completely. It is fine for professors to share concerns with
> students about accomodations or any other matter.
> But it is discrimination to refuse communication or to fail to make
> accomodations.
> Joshua can certainly attend the class without his professor's cooperation or
>
> knowing he is not wanted there.
> But it will be impossible to succeed without some accomodations. Many
> students, including me, worked closely with professors for visual subjects.
>
> I utilized office hours a lot. I did something else in lou of the lab
> credit, but I took the lecture part of biology. The professor and I did a
> lot of extra work together so she could go slower and describe the
> processes; not only was it a hard subject for me, but it relied on pictures.
>
> Having her on a one to one basis let me ask any questions I needed as well
> as let me hear the information I needed in a way I could understand; in
> class she used diagrams and other pictures.
>
> Anyway, this is a case of discrimination and sadly I see no easy solution.
> Yes, I remember very well the speech Stacy delivered; I was there. I commend
>
> her efforts to stay in the class. I could not have done it. I would have
> cried if the professor bullied me and dropped the class.
>
> Discrimination is alive and its sad to see this. We want to get ahead like
> everyone else and just need equal opportunities.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arielle Silverman
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 9:38 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
> science class for next semester
>
> President Maurer talked about the Arizona case on last year's
> presidential report. The student's name is Sebastian Ibanez and I
> believe it was some kind of counseling psychology class, so I'm not
> sure what the issues were. Sebastian is an old friend of mine but
> we've lost contact, so I don't know more than that.
> I don't think it's discriminatory for a professor to share concerns
> with a blind student about accommodation problems. It is
> discriminatory for a professor to refuse to communicate with a student
> about accommodations or to forcibly drop a student from the class
> roster. At this point it sounds like Joshua is still signed up for the
> class, and can still attend even if the professor doesn't want him
> there. However, if the professor is unwilling to arrange necessary
> accommodations, or pressures Joshua into dropping the class, I believe
> that is still discriminatory behavior.
> Several years ago Stacy Cervenka, an old NABS member, talked about her
> experience taking a horseback riding class. She had a professor who
> bullied her, made rude comments to her in front of classmates, and
> strongly pressured her to drop. Stacy was very lucky that her DSS
> office is headed by a Federationist, who took prompt action to protect
> Stacy's right to remain in the class without harassment.
> So yes, discrimination in the college classroom is alive and well. We
> should all appreciate our professors who do abide by the law, and
> especially those who go out of their way to help us get the most out
> of their classes. And to the few who still give us trouble, we just
> have to keep standing up for ourselves.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 5/20/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Arielle,
>> that is  terrible. Which sort of class was this?
>> If they need to sue the school, then nfb will go for it and make a good
>> case.
>> Its so sad to see and hear about this discrimination.
>> I ran into problems finding a suitable course last semester as an
>> elective.
>>
>> As you all know, the literature professor raised many concerns to me and
>> did
>>
>> not want to accommodate me. He said that I could not take quizzes orally;
>> that his videos could not be brought outside class and replicate the
>> experience so I could get someone to describe them, and felt I would not
>> be
>>
>> able to follow the discussion because he directs students to specific
>> pages
>>
>> and passages to discuss points.
>> My ideas were shot down and when I suggested he call me, he did not and I
>> called him and politely requested he call me to discuss the class and see
>>
>> if
>>
>> we could work around his concerns. Well, I did not take the class when my
>> dss counselor called me to say Prof C   came to her and she wanted to
>> discuss concerns and accomodations for the class.
>> I was very appalled he would speak to her without my consent and felt
>> that
>> at that point he should speak to me so we could see if it was an
>> appropriate
>>
>> class for me.
>>
>> Another class I wanted to take was marketing, but when I found out that
>> two
>>
>> professors used computer simulations as a marketing project and that was
>> a
>> major part of the grade, I decided not to take the class. One professor
>> said
>>
>> that the simulation may be challenging for me to do and suggested I take
>> it
>>
>> with other professors and gave me their names. They did not use visual
>> online simulations! However, I could not take it with prof y and x
>> because
>> it did not fit my schedule.
>> For the marketing professors, they were friendly in their corespondence,
>> and
>>
>> I did not consider it discrimination. Unfortunately, I believe their
>> concerns were legitimate and that the computer simulation would not be
>> accessible. Furthermore, one professor raised concerns about me following
>> her class with videos.
>> Again, I believe such a concern was legitimate and I'm glad she was up
>> front
>>
>> with her concerns and even sent me the syllabus ahead of time, even though
>>
>> I
>>
>> did not request it.
>> It allowed me to make an informed decision regarding her class. She never
>> said not to take it though. She  was very curteous in her responses to
>> me.
>> Now, that lit professor was not!
>>
>> Anyway, discrimination never ends and I hope this geology situation is
>> resolved.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Arielle Silverman
>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 8:18 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
>> science class for next semester
>>
>> Also, last year another blind student in Arizona was actually dropped
>> from a class by a professor just because he is blind. I believe he is
>> working with the NFB to sue the school. While you might or might not
>> want to go that far, it might help to call Meghan Sidhu at the
>> national center and just find out what's happening with that case and
>> what arguments you can use to ensure you aren't dropped from the class
>> without your consent.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 5/19/13, justin <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I have taken two geography courses before.  An intro class, and the one
>>> right afterwards.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>>> Silverman
>>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 1:29 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
>>> science class for next semester
>>>
>>> This professor is discriminating against you and that is unacceptable.
>>> Your disability office should advocate for you. If they don't, then go
>>> ahead
>>> and talk to the chair of the geology department or an associate dean or
>>> dean
>>> for the college. You may also be able to file an ADA complaint. While
>>> it's
>>> up to you how much or how long you want to fight, I think it's worth
>>> thinking about trying to prevent this professor from discriminating
>>> against
>>> other students in the future.
>>> There are many ways you can gain access to the course material,
>>> distinguish
>>> the rocks, etc. that don't cost the college much if anything at all. We
>>> can
>>> help you decide which accommodations to use but first you will need the
>>> professor to let you into the class. You can tell the professor that
>>> many
>>> blind students have taken geology courses and that you have help and
>>> support
>>> from other blind students, so the professor won't have to research the
>>> accommodations for you.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 5/20/13, Wasif, Zunaira <Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org> wrote:
>>>> You have the right to fight for this class, but do you want to fight?
>>>> You may be able to take a different class, Music Appreciation or
>>>> something else you enjoy.  Perhaps you can discuss other options with
>>>> your Dean.  Are you interested in this geology class?  If you really
>>>> want to take it then go for it!
>>>> Zunaira
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti
>>>> Shelton
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 12:33 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] requesting some advice about choosing a college
>>>> science class for next semester
>>>>
>>>> I absolutely agree with what has been stated.  This professor has no
>>>> right to pick and choose whether you take his class, (he can't pick
>>>> and choose his sighted students, right?)  If this is the class you
>>>> need to take then your disability services people need to help
>>>> advocate for you and set the record straight with this guy.  And, if
>>>> push comes to shove then you may need to file an ADA complaint about
>>>> that professor, which your DS office should be able to help you with as
>>> well.
>>>>
>>>> On the issue of textbooks, the sooner you can figure out what you need
>>>> and get it to the appropriate people the better, be that Bookshare,
>>>> your DS office, or somewhere else.  A few other places you might want
>>>> to check are APH and the library of congress.  I have never taken a
>>>> geology course before, but I know APH has published several books of
>>>> tactile diagrams for different subjects which could get you what you
>>>> need and save time for the DS office that they can use to work on
>>>> otther aspects of your textbooks.  A lot of APH's books are also
>>>> available for free loans and you could send them back when you're done
>>>> with the class.  NLS might also have some textbooks on geology which
>>>> you can also borrow for free.
>>>>
>>>> On 5/20/13, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> It is not up to the professor whether or not you take a class. If you
>>>>> sign up for the class, they are obligated to make all reasonable
>>>> accommodations.
>>>>> A good accommodation for this class might be an yb-class assistant
>>>>> (provided by your school's disability iddyxe)who could describe what
>>>>> each rock looks like. Then, when test time came, you would have to
>>>>> remember the descriptions and also weight when appropriate, and
>>>>> identify the rock based on information you ask for, such as what
>>>>> color
>>>> is it or does it have any marbling.
>>>>> This professor is being rude and discriminatory. If you really want
>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>> take the geology of rocks, there is no reason you couldn't. I just
>>>>> finished a geu-semester course in biology. The lab for the first
>>>>> course (microbiology )was almost exclusively microscope work.
>>>>> However,
>>>>
>>>>> the disability office assigned me a lab assistant and many of the
>>>>> things that we were looking at under the microscope also had a
>>>>> tactile
>>>>
>>>>> drawing. These accommodations helped me get a B in the class. What I
>>>>> am trying to say is that if microscope work can be made accessible,
>>>> surely so can rock geology.
>>>>> If your disability office and the dean of sciences can't or won't
>>>>> fight this discrimination on your behalf, you will have to fight
>>>>> harder if you want this class. You could go to the dean of students,
>>>>> a
>>>>
>>>>> local disability efficacy group if one is nearby, abd/or contact your
>>>> NFB state president.
>>>>> Any of these should be able to help you. The most important thing is
>>>>> to stand up for your right to take any class you have met the
>>>>> prerequisites for, and be ready for a fight. If things don't go
>>>>> smoothly, you could be looking at a lawsuit.
>>>>> Now, lets tackle the issue of books. If you know which book or books
>>>>> you will need for next semester, great! An easy way to get the books
>>>>> would be to send a request to Bookshare. On the Bookshare page,
>>>>> select
>>>>
>>>>> Contact Us, then select Requesting a Textbook from the dtuo-down menu.
>>>>
>>>>> Tell them the book's title, author, edition, and, if you know it, its
>>>>> ISBN. Processing a textbook request is fast, but it takes two to
>>>>> three
>>>>
>>>>> months before the book will be available through Bookshare. I have
>>>>> used this method when I knew the book far enough in advance, and the
>>>>> books are gufg-quality scans. The only drawback is the lack of
>>>>> alternative descriptions for pictures. Another method of obtaining
>>>>> your books is by requesting that the disability office provide you
>>>>> with accessible text. My disability office, for example, will take a
>>>>> copy of the book (you have to purchase it for ugrn), and scan each
>>>>> page with OCR, creating accessible text in a Word document. Then they
>>>>> go over it for errors, add page numbers and headings, and sometimes
>>>>> add alternative descriptions of pictures. Get the books to them as
>>>>> soon as possible, because most disability offices have to process a
>>>>> very large number of textbooks. Just be sure your disability office
>>>> does this before you purchase the books.
>>>>> I hope that has helped you, and I wish you the best of luck!
>>>>> -Jewel
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 20, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Joshua Hendrickson <louvins at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Joshua T Hendrickson
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello to all.  I'm glad to be a part of this list.  I am very close
>>>>>> to getting my Associates of Arts degree.  The only class I need to
>>>>>> take, is a geology science class with no lab.  I met with a
>>>>>> counselor
>>>>
>>>>>> and I was going to take a class called Geology 206 which was all
>>>>>> about rocks and things like that.  The Dean of The science
>>>>>> department
>>>>
>>>>>> had suggested I take this class, but there is a major problem.  The
>>>>>> teacher of this class doesn't want me to take the class.  This is
>>>>>> extremely frustrating.  I had went to my disability support office,
>>>>>> and asked Gloria to call the teacher and find out when I could meet
>>>>>> with him to talk about what acomidations I would need for the
>>>>>> upcoming class, the teacher wouldn't even talk to me on the phone.
>>>>>> He told gloria, there would be no way I could tell the different
>>>> rocks apart.
>>>>>> I was going to take this same class a couple semesters before but in
>>>>>> the summer not in the fall like I still might take this class.  Lynn
>>>>>> who heads the disability department talked with the dean of science
>>>>>> again, and now people are suggesting that I take an online class
>>>>>> called geology of the solar system.  Lynn told me she thought I
>>>>>> should take this class, because the lady who taught the class was
>>>>>> supportive and didn't mind if I take this class.  I don't really
>>>>>> want
>>>>
>>>>>> to take an online class, because I don't know how accessible it will
>>>>>> be with jaws.  I was sent an email with a link to a page that was
>>>>>> kind of set up like what the online course would look like, but it
>>>>>> was very confusing.  Since there isn't much there as far as
>>>>>> assignments, or discussion questions, its very hard for me to figure
>>>>>> out if jaws will be able to read what needs to be read.  I'm going
>>>>>> to
>>>>
>>>>>> meet tomorrow with Lyn, and the teacher of this online course, to
>>>>>> see
>>>>
>>>>>> if I should take this class, although, I am already registered for
>>>>>> the lecture based geology rock class with the teacher who doesn't
>>>>>> even want me in his class.  Also, I don't even have any accessible
>>>>>> textbooks for either class yet, that is another concern.  Thanks for
>>>>>> reading this message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kaiti
>>>>
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-- 
Kaiti