[nabs-l] offensive questions
justin
justin.williams2 at gmail.com
Tue May 28 02:42:10 UTC 2013
One day does not do it; it is actually worse to be honest. If they
experience any success, they have a skewed sense of reality. If you were
teaching the sighted how to work with the blind in computers or mobility,
you know, blindness skills, the immersion method would be useful at times.
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Desiree Oudinot
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:34 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] offensive questions
But in what context could that be successful? There would have to be
something in it for the students. It makes sense how sighted O&m instructors
would be put under blindfold for part of their training, for example. but to
put a bunch of high school kids through that, who are already rebelling at
the slightest sign that something isn't going their way? No, that's not
happening. I'm not criticizing you, just putting a bit of realism into what
you've said.
On 5/27/13, justin <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> The simulation is bad because you are taking people who don't have any
> alternative skills and placing in a situation where that is their only
> hope of completing a task. It's a game to them; then they go back to
> their lives. There is a good education component if it is used in the
> right context. I would like to see more people immersed for a week or
> more for them to really get an appreciating of it.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
> Silverman
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:19 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] offensive questions
>
> Desiree, I too am sickened by your description of what happened in
> your class. Now that I am writing my dissertation on blindness
> simulations and have direct evidence that they make people think the
> blind are less capable, I am really frustrated by all the disability
> simulations happening in classrooms today. There is very little
> research backing their use as an educational tool, and many disability
> activists have argued against their use. Simulations like the earplugs
> and blindfolds are generally designed to make people appreciate the
> dependency and loss imposed by the condition.
> What people don't realize is that the general public already
> overestimates how bad it would be to be blind or deaf. So a simulation
> only exaggerates the misconceptions that already exist in society,
> without addressing the real overlooked issues, like prejudice and
discrimination.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 5/28/13, Desiree Oudinot <turtlepower17 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> When I was still in public school, I believe it was in eighth grade,
>> my English teacher wanted us all to come in as disabled students for
>> a day. Most kids either shoved earplugs in their ears to simulate
>> deafness, or had to write on paper all day to simulate muteness. It
>> was sickening, and I usually am not bothered by things like that. It
>> was just such a crude representation that it made it completely
>> unrealistic. When I asked if I could come in as myself, I was told,
>> very sternly, that that would be unacceptable. So I just shoved
>> earplugs in my ears like everyone else. Then, when we had to write a
>> paper about our experiences, I told that teacher how I really felt,
>> and failed the project.
>>
>> On 5/28/13, Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu> wrote:
>>> LOL!
>>> We did something similar in my class on the Family.
>>> They blind-folded the students and made them open up a glass bottle
>>> of cola, and get it to me.
>>> It was fun listening to them struggle to open it with the old
>>> fashioned bottle opener!
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Miso Kwak
>>> [kwakmiso at aol.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 5:39 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] offensive questions
>>>
>>> LOL I had to laugh reading Melissa's email. haha I recommend a novel
>>> entitled Blindness by Jose Saramago. It's available on Bookshare.
>>> Although advocacy for the blind is not the central theme it's an
>>> interesting read for us blind people.
>>> In the novel, everybody in the world except for one person goes blind.
>>> I read this book in my AP Literature class and as one of follow-up
>>> activities, the teacher divided my class into small groups and did
>>> an activity where a sighted reader would take the rest of the
>>> assigned small group(blind-folded) to different locations on the campus.
>>> Aside from the book, at a leadership camp I went to for one of the
>>> activities we did, the campers were divided into two groups: sighted
>>> and blind-folded.
>>> The sighted students had to take the blind-folded to dining hall
>>> make sure the blind-folded gets fed.
>>> Although its main lessons were learning how to request help, how to
>>> be a reliable person, empathy, respect, etc I thought it was an
>>> educational activity.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: melissa Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com>
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tue, May 28, 2013 3:31 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] offensive questions
>>>
>>> If I ruled the world.
>>> All of the sighted people would be blind for a few years.
>>> The blind would be in control and we would do all the patronizing
>>> things that they do to us to them.
>>> *dreamful sigh*.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Melissa and Pj
>>> "Forever is composed of nows." -Emily Dickinson facebook Melissa R
>>> Green Linkedin www.linkedin.com/in/melissagreen5674
>>> skype: lissa5674
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "Misty Dawn Bradley" <MistyDBradley at gmail.com>; "National
>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 7:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] offensive questions
>>>
>>>
>>> Misty,
>>> What happened to you yesterday sounds very aggravating. If I may
>>> ask, was this offending person an employee at an establishment where
>>> you were hanging out, or just someone who was part of your social group?
>>> If she was an employee, then perhaps you might want to call the
>>> manager and complain about what happened? It's one thing to ask
>>> questions, but what's maddening about this situation is that it
>>> sounds like you told her how you do things, and how you prefer to be
>>> treated, and she simply didn't listen. I often feel like strangers I
>>> encounter on the street don't fully listen to what I am saying.
>>> Sometimes if I do need some information and ask a question, they
>>> don't really listen to my question and just say what they think I
>>> want to hear. For example, on Saturday I was walking through a
>>> parking lot to get to a restaurant. There was a sidewalk path, but I
>>> remembered that it had been under construction and was walking in
>>> the parking lot to avoid the construction. Someone came up and
>>> offered to help me get back on the sidewalk. I asked him if the
>>> sidewalk barricades had been removed, but instead of answering me he
>>> kept saying he wanted to help me get back on the sidewalk and going
>>> on about how dangerous it was for me to be walking in the parking
>>> lot. Anyway, I finally had to stop him and say "Could you please
>>> answer the question I'm asking you? Are there barricades on the
>>> sidewalk?" and finally he told me the barricades had been removed.
>>> It would have gone much faster for both of us if he had just
>>> answered my original question the first time and then I could have
>>> moved to the
> sidewalk without assistance.
>>> I also think the patronizing actions of others are most frustrating
>>> of all. Too often I have people patting me on the arm or telling me
>>> I'm doing a good job as I walk by them, as if I need a cheerleader.
>>> I sometimes am tempted to grab some of these people, inform them
>>> that I will be receiving my Ph.D. in the next year, and then ask
>>> them if they would speak to an adult of my educational stature this way?
>>> As a psychologist I am really intrigued by the ways that sighted
>>> people think about how they would behave if they became blind. It
>>> has been well-documented that people neglect how much they can, and
>>> would, adapt to new situations over time. The fact is that if any of
>>> these doubting sighted folks became blind, they would have to adapt
>>> in order to keep living their lives. Some of them might lapse into
>>> depression, or be rich enough to hire full-time help with
>>> everything, but most of these people would be resilient enough (and
>>> practical
>>> enough) to learn the exact same skills we take for granted. However,
>>> sighted people looking into the future don't realize that this would
>>> happen. In one of my blindness simulation experiments I actually
>>> asked sighted people how well they thought they could perform
>>> various activities if they became blind, and most said they thought
>>> they would be extremely incapable. Notably, this was worse for those
>>> who had just been blindfolded and asked to walk around with a cane
>>> without
> any training.
>>> The participants' ratings of how capable they would be as blind
>>> people were closely related to their ratings of how capable actual
>>> blind people would be at the exact same tasks, suggesting that
>>> sighted people think about how they would do it and then use that
>>> prediction to make a judgment about how others would do the same
>>> thing
> blind.
>>> I think when we work on educating people, we want to get across to
>>> them that blindness techniques are things that pretty much anyone
>>> can learn. Those of us who have learned blindness techniques aren't
>>> special and we don't have superpowers. We just learned these skills
>>> because we were motivated to do normal things and we had no other
>>> choice but to use the alternative skills. It's simply not practical
>>> for most of us to have sighted help doing everything, and when we do
>>> take sighted assistance there is often a cost of some sort (monetary
>>> cost, being a burden on others or giving up some of our freedom). So
>>> to minimize these costs we figure out nonvisual ways to get things
>>> done. That's it.
>>>
>>> Arielle
>>>
>>> On 5/27/13, Misty Dawn Bradley <mistydbradley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arielle,
>>>> I get those same comments about being "amazing" or "inspiring" also.
>>>> I usually just respond by saying that I am a normal person who is
>>>> just
>>> doing
>>>> what they need to do in life. I try to explain also how I do it if
>>> there
>>>> is
>>>> time, but usually I do not know what to say either, so I just tell
>>> them
>>>> that
>>>> I just do what I need to do like other people do. A lot of sighted
>>> people
>>>> tell me that they could never travel independently or do anything
>>>> on
>>> their
>>>> own if they were blind and that they would have someone doing
>>> everything
>>>> for
>>>> them all of the time. I just tell them that there are things in
>>>> life
>>> that
>>>> need to get done, such as grocery shopping, working, and many other
>>> daily
>>>> things, and it is much easier and makes me feel more free and
>>> independent
>>>> to
>>>> do these things when I want to do them instead of always relying on
>>>> everyone to take me or do it for me on their own time. I have a lot
>>>> more
>>> freedom
>>>> and
>>>> flexibility that way. Sometimes, when I put it that way, they can
>>>> understand somewhat what I mean, and they will tell me so.
>>>> Misty
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <jsoro620 at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students
>>> mailing
>>>> list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 27, 2013 8:42 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] offensive questions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. Unfortunately there are times when people ask questions
>>>>> out
>>> of
>>>>> doubt or sarcasm rather than out of true curiosity. They already
>>>>> believe we can't do something and answering their question about
>>>>> how we do it doesn't persuade them to give us a job, or a second
>>>>> date, or whatever. Sometimes it's hard to tell if a question is
>>>>> asked out of curiosity or if the questioner has already made up
>>>>> his/her
> mind.
>>>>> However, I do think we should give folks the benefit of the doubt
>>>>> and at least attempt to educate them the best we can. We don't
>>>>> want well-intentioned folks to feel they have to bottle their
>>>>> questions inside and never learn what they want to learn about
>>>>> blindness. I
>>> also
>>>>> agree that if a question crosses personal boundaries, such as a
>>>>> question about how we handle toilet matters, then it should be
>>>>> addressed more assertively. I have luckily not been asked any
>>>>> questions that I found to be rude or invasive, but I know others
>>>>> have at times.
>>>>> I don't mind answering (appropriate) questions at all, but I am
>>> always
>>>>> stumped when some stranger tells me I am
>>>>> amazing/brave/inspiring/courageous. I can never figure out how to
>>>>> respond in such a way that acknowledges their goodwill but also
>>>>> attempts to educate them about the fact I am not very amazing or
>>> brave
>>>>> just because I can walk somewhere by myself. I could just say
>>>>> "thank you" and move on, but I don't like doing that because I
>>>>> feel like by thanking them I am validating what they think about
>>>>> blind people
>>> being
>>>>> amazing for doing the simplest things. Sometimes I find myself
>>>>> just ignoring the comment because I don't know what to say. Other
>>>>> times I will attempt to briefly explain the relevant techniques
>>>>> that I use,
>>> if
>>>>> time allows and if they seem interested. How do you handle this?
>>>>>
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/27/13, Joe <jsoro620 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Damn, this stupid JAWS thing isn't letting me respond to sender.
>>> LOL
>>>>>> Just
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> chime in that I thought this was an excellent and well-written
>>> post. I'm
>>>>>> sure you're a superb journalist.--Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of The
>>> weird
>>>>>> writer
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2013 1:40 AM
>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] offensive questions
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The restaurant bustles with activity as my date and I sit
>>>>>> opposite
>>> each
>>>>>> other, talking about ourselves and what we do. To my immediate
>>> right, a
>>>>>> woman is talking to her mom on her cell phone about the baseball
>>> game
>>>>>> she
>>>>>> missed. Different smells bounce off my nose as men and women pass
>>>>>> us making their way to their tables. Dishes clatter in the
>>>>>> kitchen behind me,
>>> and
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> date's cologne, masked over with deodorant, sprays my sense of
>>> smell as
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> gaze towards his ebony accented voice. We're chatting jovially,
>>>>>> our laughter dicing holes in conversations around us, making
>>>>>> people stop, and,
>>> I'm
>>>>>> sure,
>>>>>> stare at this interracial gay couple.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When the dishes come, we get into the topic of careers. He's a
>>> teacher.
>>>>>> With a mouth full, and hesitation dotting his syllables like
>>>>>> rain,
>>> he
>>>>>> asks
>>>>>> me a very important question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "If you're blind, how can you be a journalist?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instantly the talons rise, and my fingers toy with the idea of
>>> creeping
>>>>>> towards his throat. A dozen retorts bang into my head as if it
>>>>>> were
>>> a
>>>>>> chamber full of bullets, ready to blast this rude insensitive
>>> sighted
>>>>>> person
>>>>>> away. After a split second however, I suddenly realize that he's
>>> never
>>>>>> seen
>>>>>> adaptive technology, and he's never seen a Braille display, and
>>>>>> he's certainly never seen a victor reader stream or a computer
>>>>>> with a
>>> screen
>>>>>> reader before. He's not in my world and he never was. Taking a
>>>>>> deep breath, I explain how I'm a journalist when I'm blind, all
>>>>>> with a huge
>>> smile on
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> face. The reason I choose to answer all his questions, and many
>>> others,
>>>>>> instead of following my gut instinct to be sarcastic is, he may
>>>>>> not
>>> be
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> world, but I know he can be if I just teach him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whenever I hang around blind people and we make jokes about
>>>>>> speech synthesizers that sighted people wouldn't understand a
>>>>>> sentence is uttered without fail. Sooner or later, we get to
>>>>>> talking about sighted
>>> people
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> their lack of blindness knowledge. The words fly at me like sharp
>>>>>> bullets that are not meant for me. They're angry at the sighted
>>>>>> people who
>>> ask
>>>>>> us
>>>>>> how we type on a computer. It's an angry question that's become a
>>> common
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> in the blindness community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "They should know better. Why are they so stupid?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When that's uttered, I immediately see things through the sighted
>>> point
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> view. The truth is, they won't be an expert about blindness ways
>>>>>> or technology. They shouldn't know better because no one knows
>>> everything,
>>>>>> especially about a different way of living. They shouldn't know
>>> better.
>>>>>> Instead, we have to get angry less, and educate more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Education is the key of knowledge that will turn itself,
>>>>>> unlocking
>>> the
>>>>>> right
>>>>>> doors if the right direction is given. Among the disabled
>>>>>> community
>>> who
>>>>>> tend
>>>>>> to get angry when they're asked to educate, this applies to
>>>>>> people
>>> with
>>>>>> HIV
>>>>>> and aids as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've seen countless instances where someone with HIV or AIDS gets
>>>>>> offended when a potential partner asks him if he will contract if
>>>>>> they
>>> exchange
>>>>>> saliva. The contracted person became offended, and stormed off,
>>> hurt.
>>>>>> Upon
>>>>>> further investigation, I learned that his date didn't even know
>>> what HIV
>>>>>> did. He didn't even know that it didn't have a cure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A lot of people say ignorance is bliss, but it's also a divider.
>>> Even
>>>>>> today,
>>>>>> the biggest hurtle that we all have to overcome is inclusion and
>>>>>> acceptance, even among the gay community, disabled community, and
>>>>>> HIV
>>> community. In
>>>>>> today's day and age, just simple curiosity could ruin a good
>>> friendship
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> relationship because of "offensive questions." That divide grows
>>> because
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> are easily offended at the questions we asked ourselves at one
>>> point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I was learning the bus route for my daily commutes, I
>>>>>> wondered
>>> if
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> would even work, me having to travel on the bus for field reporting.
>>>>>> I've asked the same question as my restaurant date. "How am I
>>>>>> going
>>> to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> journalist?" with patience, and persistence, I figured out the
>>> answers
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> trial and error and learning from my own past mistakes. If I
>>>>>> would
>>> have
>>>>>> let
>>>>>> my own question offend me then I wouldn't have figured out the
>>> answer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have HIV but I had to ask the above question in order to
>>> find
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> that you can't get HIV from a small exchange of saliva. I know
>>>>>> now
>>> how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> better do my job as a blind journalist because I had to find an
>>> answer.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> couldn't let those two questions go unanswered. If I did, then
>>>>>> how blissful would I be, ignorant about knowledge that would help
>>>>>> someone else
>>> as
>>>>>> well
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> me in the future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think anyone should remain in the dark if I have an
>>>>>> answer
>>> to a
>>>>>> question. Answers, with all their simplicity sprinkle awareness
>>> along
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> their validity. Not far behind awareness comes understanding, and
>>> soon,
>>>>>> acceptance. An answer to a seemingly offensive question doesn't
>>>>>> just satisfy curiosity but it opens up a door to understand.
>>>>>> There are a lot of
>>> other
>>>>>> positive things behind that door even if they're not visible
>>>>>> immediately.
>>>>>> Some effects are immediate, such as inclusion, and others are far
>>> off,
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as advocacy born from awareness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I look around and see a world that's divided as it is, I
>>>>>> don't
>>> want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> divide it even more just because someone asks me how I use a
>>> computer.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>> education breeds positive results then people who live in
>>>>>> different conditions should educate others how they do it. it's
>>>>>> the only way
>>> to
>>>>>> end
>>>>>> these "offensive questions."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The goal of inclusion is to do just that, include. My sighted
>>>>>> date
>>> lives
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> an ethnic world I'll never completely understand because I've
>>>>>> never lived through the discriminatory history but I can ask
>>>>>> questions, and
>>> with
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> answer, I'm no longer on the outside anymore. We're together.
>>>>>> With every answer I give about my adaptive life, we're coming
>>> together
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> way that offended people won't be able to do for a very long time.
>>>>>> He understands me now and that's the most valuable education I
>>> could
>>>>>> ever
>>>>>> give.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If people really want to have us unite to stand for a positive
>>> voice
>>>>>> then
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we
>>>>>> can't widen the distance because we're offended at questions.
>>>>>> Instead, we should open our world to people and share as much as
>>>>>> we
>>> can,
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> asked. If we keep doing that I know that the door will open wide
>>> enough
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> let all of us through to a better world, a world where we all
>>>>>> know
>>> each
>>>>>> other, stand for one another, and unite for equality and embrace
>>> the
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> teacher of all, differences. That would make a beautifully
>>>>>> educated world, one where I'd be happy to say that this positive
>>>>>> change was the
>>> result
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> answering offensive questions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /*See below for resume, writing links, social media links, and
>>>>>> other writing archives */
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Click here to view my resume*
>>>>>>
>>> <http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmy.indeed.com%2Fme%2
>>> F
>>> king
>>> ettresume%3Fsubfrom%3Dt>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *
>>>>>>
>>> <http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdo
>>> c
>>> umen
>>> t%2Fpub%3Fid%3D1rASWYM_d-JajxmIKycBzVNgdwhJgUePAw1_IBFchglY>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Click here to see my writing archive
>>>>>>
>>> <http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdo
>>> c
>>> umen
>>> t%2Fpub%3Fid%3D1rASWYM_d-JajxmIKycBzVNgdwhJgUePAw1_IBFchglY>*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Click here to view my website/
>>>>>> /
>>> <http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=http%3A%2F%2Frobertkingett.com%2F>
>>> *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */
>>>>>> /*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> */writer for Chicago Theater Beat/ *
>>>>>> *Tel: 850 764 2161 *
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>> <http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin
>>> %
>>> 2Fki
>>> ngettr>
>>>>>> Designed with WiseStamp -
>>>>>>
>>> <http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=http%3A%2F%2Fr1.wisestamp.com%2Fr%
>>> 2
>>> Flan
>>> ding%3Fu%3D5ddbf9ed0c4ca423%26v%3D3.13.2%26t%3D1369460407891%26promo
>>> %
>>> 3D10
>>> %26dest%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.wisestamp.com%252Femail-install%253
>>> F
>>> utm_
>>> source%253Dextension%2526utm_medium%253Demail%2526utm_campaign%253Dp
>>> r
>>> omo_
>>> 10>Get
>>>>>> yours
>>>>>>
>>> <http://s.wisestamp.com/links?url=http%3A%2F%2Fr1.wisestamp.com%2Fr%
>>> 2
>>> Flan
>>> ding%3Fu%3D5ddbf9ed0c4ca423%26v%3D3.13.2%26t%3D1369460407891%26promo
>>> %
>>> 3D10
>>> %26dest%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.wisestamp.com%252Femail-install%253
>>> F
>>> utm_
>>> source%253Dextension%2526utm_medium%253Demail%2526utm_campaign%253Dp
>>> r
>>> omo_
>>> 10>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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