[nabs-l] Over Night College Visit

Mon Nov 11 04:21:18 UTC 2013

Good evening everyone,

    He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael 
California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's national 
convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees and other 
practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One area in which 
they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind guide dog 
instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. We all ready 
have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged blind guide dog 
trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog program including The 
Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as guide dog instructors.

    Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide Dog 
Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB believe 
to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our guide dog 
programs would have changed many of the demeaning and custodial policies 
all too common to these outfits. To the best of my knowledge none of our 
guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. 
If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted 
their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search for 
the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that document 
many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would implement. Hope this 
will begin to start answering some of your questions.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit

Hannah,
Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks.
He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which
school this is although I plan to find out.

Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams
are fine.
I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or
her better. They know what to do to correct their dog.
But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole
dog user group a bad representation.

I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal
given the advice so far.
I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her
decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment
and stress. I hope it’s the right decision.

Ashley
-----Original Message----- 
From: Hannah Chadwick
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit

Ashley and Josh,
Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great
things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you
put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to
your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address
many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you
guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has
never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't
judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us
free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I
strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides
and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great.

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit

I've heard good things about guiding eyes too.
AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams
better than others.
I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams.
It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to
correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the
dog too.

Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want,
not the one in CA.
You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training.
Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great  well
behaved dogs.
In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that
cubicle.

They do not make messes.
They do not sniff excessively.
And, no they do not get excited contrary  to what Tyler said. They met new
people  all the time and still acted like guide dogs.

Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to
national convention.

Ashley

-----Original Message----- 
From: Joshua Lester
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit

Hi Julie.
You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions.
I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are!
The school you trained at is wonderful, as well!
All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes.
This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone,
and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned
me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act.
Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your
school!
Blessings, Joshua
________________________________________
From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity
[kaybaycar at gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit

Hi all,

I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is
worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's
behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us
means that she is a responsible dog handeler.  Let's not make
judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave.  I went on
college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt
well with it.  Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about
how the dog would handle the new situation.  But my dog enjoyed the
challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized
we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school.
Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same.

As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but
most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing
people, let alone barking or jumping.  Remember that these dogs guide
us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we
are in the streets.  Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it
to be distracted can be dangerous.  I have faith that the majority of
dog handlers do the best they can.  The school teaches us how
important this is after all.

Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating.  :)  I do not anticipate
being lonely or jobless because I have a dog.  I am dedicated to my
dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue.  The
reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a
little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if
they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog
no matter how good the behavior.  Part of the new dog issue is the
bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other
part is that using a guide dog is new.  At least, for Lizzy it is.
But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and
intelligent.  You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to
others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure
you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a
dog at this college visit.

On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu> wrote:
> Great post, Ashley!
> Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or
> roam
> around the room, when not being handled?
> That has happened way too much where I'm from!
> Train them correctly, and expect them to act right!
> You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog,
> (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the
> Blind!
> Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because
> that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them!
> That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs!
> Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended!
> Blessings, Joshua
> ________________________________________
> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett
> [bookwormahb at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Mark,
> I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again.
> I have been offended by  disruptive guide dogs.
> I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have
> no
> problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or
> exhibit other behavior she mentioned.
> I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there.
>
> You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but
> when
> you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you
> might
> think again.
>
> I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in
> public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility.
> You
> have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a
> working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should
> I
> mention barks?
> Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to
> what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting
> before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights
> comes
> responsibility.
> I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have
> a
> guide dog.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark J. Cadigan
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide
> Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are
> themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from
> when giving advice.
>
>
>
> Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I
> would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I
> have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say
> about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting
> accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do
> so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to
> get
> an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a
> student.
>
>
>
> My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem
> and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog,
> and
> if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being
> said,
> you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should
> stand your ground, and never back down on your rights.
>
>
>
> The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with
> someone
> while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue
> what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on
> the
> college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not
> let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they
> are
> just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them.
>
>
>
> Feel free to email me off list
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lizzy" <lizzym0827 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
>
>> Hi All,
>> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I
>> am in need of some help.  I am currently a senior in high school going
>> not
>> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at
>> my number one choice school.  To all of the guide dog users, I've had my
>> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about
>> if
>> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip.  My reasons
>> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot
>> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about).  I've
>> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a
>> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or
>> not (since I'll be all over campus).  Also, her behavior is slightly
>> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is
>> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make
>> her look like a trained dog).  I will be sitting in on a class, doing an
>> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current
>> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or
>> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it.  I
>> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll
>> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours.  But is
>> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the
>> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be
>> greatly appreciated.
>> Thanks,
>> Lizzy
>>
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--
Julie McG
National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National
Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16

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