[nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

[wmodnl wmodnl]

While reading this thread, the following salient points come to mind.
First, simply put, school districts, the "normal sited world", and others will not interact with us unless they are forced.  Schools for the blind and other centers allow for the burden shift to happen, fostering legal discrimination against us. While my views are not swayed that all people want this, when you are part of a minority group like blindness, no one wants to be responsible for your success.
Blind schools, training centers, and other resources can act as extra voices when parrents and children are up against opposing systems like public schools.  The low expectations, negative attitudes force us in many ways to need these places.  A school system is going to do what it wants, regardless of the blind child's and parents wishes. It can be argued that, these other institutions provide us a needed system of checks and balances. Without them, the doctors, local government, and others in power would probably set laws to keep us out of the public.  





Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:57 AM, "Sandra Gayer" <sandragayer7 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> I have had to read this thread, listening to people complaining about
> having resources which are simply non-existent in England. I live here
> and if you'd like to live here as well, I can promise you there are no
> such things as "Light Houses" or "Blind Preschool" or, ha ha ha,
> "Training Centres" for the blind, unless you count a couple of
> dedicated schools for the blind which haven't been closed down yet. In
> this country, there are gangs who specialise in guide dog bashing. I
> remember a girl who wouldn't leave the house with her cane because
> some people in her area found it funny to spit on her. I've never been
> to America although I have read about the extraordinary work The NFB
> does. If I had access to even half the things you are moaning about, I
> would be extatic! I could go on about The NLS and how people this side
> of the world aren't permitted access to web Braille, let alone the
> hard copy Braille books available but I won't. I could also talk about
> how Braille transcription is billed by the hour not the page. Come and
> live here for a month and you'll be greatful for what you have.
> 
> Very best wishes,
> Sandra.
> 
>> On 11/11/13, Joshua Hendrickson <louvins at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi to all.  I have been reading this thread with great interest.
>> After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going
>> to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn
>> some indipendent living skills.  For me, I need to attend this center
>> so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college.
>> Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it
>> is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of
>> state services.  As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed
>> through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the
>> blind for 3 years.  Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better.  I
>> feel the education I received in public school was better than what I
>> received at ISVI.  I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because
>> I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have
>> had to take so many remedial math classes.  Like others have already
>> stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not.
>> I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the
>> blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them.
>> We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me
>> kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook.
>> Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever
>> they may be worth.
>> 
>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Minh,
>>> 
>>> I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with
>>> opportunities to build confidence.
>>> 
>>> As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle brought
>>> up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an
>>> informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al
>>> Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether a
>>> graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of
>>> graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I
>>> think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is the
>>> desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may
>>> attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide later
>>> that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable
>>> measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates
>>> according to these  measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the
>>> state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure.
>>> But the paper will probably provide more insight on this.
>>> Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and
>>> not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in.
>>> 
>>> I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from
>>> society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class takes
>>> up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the day
>>> does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or
>>> overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I made
>>> friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I
>>> did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I
>>> realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I
>>> wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with
>>> center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and
>>> classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because
>>> someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted
>>> people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool
>>> people.
>>> 
>>> The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example,
>>> your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice
>>> your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at
>>> home and in the community. However, I don't think that this
>>> experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class
>>> wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from
>>> society.
>>> 
>>> I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic,
>>> but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and
>>> people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it
>>> as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was
>>> just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what
>>> society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and
>>> confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized
>>> that I needed the opportunity to be successful.
>>> 
>>> Cindy
>>> 
>>>> On 11/10/13, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Arielle,
>>>> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for
>>>> viewing online? I would love to read it.
>>>> 
>>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Min,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the
>>>>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to
>>>>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were
>>>>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less
>>>>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I
>>>>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been
>>>>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher
>>>>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required
>>>>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle.
>>>>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit
>>>>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent
>>>>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have
>>>>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had
>>>>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home
>>>>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel
>>>>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do
>>>>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills
>>>>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own.
>>>>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I
>>>>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week
>>>>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I
>>>>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't
>>>>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center
>>>>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while
>>>>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just
>>>>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing
>>>>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again
>>>>> as a working, married woman.
>>>>> 
>>>>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the
>>>>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did
>>>>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have
>>>>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who
>>>>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates
>>>>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who
>>>>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who
>>>>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I
>>>>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as
>>>>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training
>>>>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to
>>>>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more
>>>>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore,
>>>>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center
>>>>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment
>>>>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Arielle
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Bridgit,
>>>>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your
>>>>>> sisters.
>>>>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had  a
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do
>>>>>> chores
>>>>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or
>>>>>> guests
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> chores.
>>>>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal
>>>>>> care.
>>>>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes.
>>>>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> training wheels once I got that.
>>>>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> lap and chew with mouth  closed.
>>>>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact,
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> met
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents
>>>>>> did
>>>>>> not expect this of them.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my
>>>>>> parents
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> go
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher.
>>>>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher.
>>>>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less
>>>>>> stressful.
>>>>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Bridget Walker
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread
>>>>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this
>>>>>> talk
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was
>>>>>> born
>>>>>> with sight  but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't
>>>>>> remember
>>>>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but
>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>> close.
>>>>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me
>>>>>> longer?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different.
>>>>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> blind.
>>>>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was
>>>>>> getting
>>>>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol.
>>>>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school.
>>>>>> That
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations  but my
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing
>>>>>> learning
>>>>>> disability rather then being blind.
>>>>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled
>>>>>> students
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state
>>>>>> standards.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> left.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur"
>>>>>> <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind
>>>>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real
>>>>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has
>>>>>>> autism
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> aschool for autistic kids!
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Cindy Bennett
>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
>>> 
>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>> 
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>> 
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> 
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