[nabs-l] Training centers not real world

[RJ Sandefur]

It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or
they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but the
proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone says
they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not
employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers who
sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? Apparently
----- Original Message -----
From: "justin williams" <justin.williams2 at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world


> If you attend the national convention, the training centers are highly
> toubted all week long.  Though I am careful of how much of the nfb
coolaide
> I drink, and catch phrases I swallow, I've just got to give a big thumbs
up
> to our training centers.  I am one of those individuals who have not had
the
> opportunity to attend one myself as of yet, but I'll just give a big thank
> you to all of the staff who have done such a good job with the training,
and
> a congradulations to all of the fine folks who have been deamed skilled
> enough to have graduated.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit
> Pollpeter
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world
>
> They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good
> government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is
> taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given
> situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools
> and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are
> better equipped to deal with life.
>
> Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who
> didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who
> allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many
> of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget
> that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or
> it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in
> life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you
> are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people
> back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later
> in life would flounder and find no direction.
>
> Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success,  but
> neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have.
> It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training
> centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools
> like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find
> confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you
> have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years
> of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers
> have helped many make this transition.
>
> It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach
> skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations.
> College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you
> theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills
> to practical situations.
>
> So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do.
> It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and
> successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the
> exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and
> training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and
> I'm only addressing training centers.
>
> Bridgit
>
>
> Bridgit
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real
> world
> Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation
> centers
> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>
>
> > Minh,
> >
> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as
> an
> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children,
> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
> >
> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning
> skills
> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
> people,
> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way,
> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
> >
> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without
> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
> Braille,
> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills
> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
> > training centers are necessary.
> >
> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world
> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on
> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
> polite,
> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing
> to
> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an
> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature.
> >
> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you
> in
> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of
> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would
> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a
> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with
> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
> >
> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage
> of
> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background,
> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in
> > school, employment and life in general.
> >
> > Bridgit
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
> > From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying
> how
> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain
> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success
> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment
> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are
> these
> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe
> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of
> my
> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned
> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of
> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she
> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen
> and
> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much
> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself
> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see
> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to
> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many
> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out
> there
> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is
> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
> skills
> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the
> > experience.
> >
> > Minh
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> ail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500
> From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID:
>
> <CAFja7Fbprrv88n3xFZ2zPab5LjexdR-6G_Ag59uLVn-P357d3w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know
> what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if
> he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete
> his job as well as any sighted pastor.
>
> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation
> centers
> > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> > To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
> > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >
> >
> >> Minh,
> >>
> >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as
> an
> >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children,
> >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
> >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
> >>
> >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning
> skills
> >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
> people,
> >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way,
> >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
> >>
> >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without
> >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
> Braille,
> >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills
> >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
> >> training centers are necessary.
> >>
> >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world
> >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
> >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on
> >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
> polite,
> >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing
> to
> >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an
> >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human
> nature.
> >>
> >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you
> in
> >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
> >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of
> >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people
> would
> >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a
> >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with
> >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
> >>
> >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage
> of
> >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this
> background,
> >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in
> >> school, employment and life in general.
> >>
> >> Bridgit
> >> Message: 3
> >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
> >> From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >> Message-ID:
> >>
> >> <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>
> >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying
> how
> >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain
> >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success
> >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment
> >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are
> these
> >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe
> >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of
> my
> >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned
> >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of
> >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she
> >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen
> and
> >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much
> >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach
> myself
> >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see
> >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to
> >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many
> >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out
> there
> >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is
> >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
> skills
> >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the
> >> experience.
> >>
> >> Minh
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >>
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> > ail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40
> gmail.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Kaiti
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> RJ,
> No your employer won't care if you went to a training center.
> But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job.
> You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more.
> So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a
> center
> and such benefits help people succeed and change lives.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RJ Sandefur
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>
> If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at
> Anywhere
> baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not
> Joe
> Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>
>
> > Minh,
> >
> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as
> an
> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children,
> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
> >
> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning
> skills
> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
> people,
> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way,
> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
> >
> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without
> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
> Braille,
> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills
> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
> > training centers are necessary.
> >
> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world
> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on
> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
> polite,
> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing
> to
> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an
> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature.
> >
> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you
> in
> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of
> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would
> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a
> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with
> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
> >
> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage
> of
> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background,
> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in
> > school, employment and life in general.
> >
> > Bridgit
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
> > From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying
> how
> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain
> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success
> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment
> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are
> these
> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe
> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of
> my
> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned
> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of
> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she
> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen
> and
> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much
> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself
> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see
> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to
> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many
> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out
> there
> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is
> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
> skills
> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the
> > experience.
> >
> > Minh
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl
> ink.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> RJ,
> They do teach job skills. just talk to  a center graduate and you'll get
> the
> answer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RJ Sandefur
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>
> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation
> centers
> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>
>
> > Minh,
> >
> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as
> an
> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children,
> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
> >
> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning
> skills
> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
> people,
> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way,
> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
> >
> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without
> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
> Braille,
> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills
> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
> > training centers are necessary.
> >
> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world
> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on
> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
> polite,
> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing
> to
> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an
> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature.
> >
> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you
> in
> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of
> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would
> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a
> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with
> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
> >
> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage
> of
> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background,
> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in
> > school, employment and life in general.
> >
> > Bridgit
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
> > From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> > Message-ID:
> >
> > <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying
> how
> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain
> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success
> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment
> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are
> these
> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe
> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of
> my
> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned
> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of
> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she
> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen
> and
> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much
> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself
> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see
> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to
> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many
> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out
> there
> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is
> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
> skills
> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the
> > experience.
> >
> > Minh
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> ail.com
>
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600
> From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP156CCEF348B06132AF532ECC4FF0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with.
> No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government
> training centers for the blind.
>
> There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various
> reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few
> receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it
> really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined
> ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those
> mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from
> first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my
> blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I
> was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once
> recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and
> I could have benefited from some training.
>
> I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot
> for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills
> beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself.
>
> Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for
> most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a
> lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a
> lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and
> resources to live independently.
>
> Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training
> if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone
> would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to
> work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped
> for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully
> presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people
> who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based,
> though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the
> skills, but this seems like a simple solution.
>
> Bridgit
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: <jsoro620 at gmail.com>, "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and
> she
> has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training
> center
> due to her having a child. RJ
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600
> From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP21126C588B2254F22F8BBA8C4FF0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ashley,
>
> The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a
> major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes
> the NFB centers.
>
> Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend
> as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most
> are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough
> to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow
> people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other
> institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you
> suggest or even offer day programs.
>
> The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government
> doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or
> the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will
> not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency
> working with people with disabilities.
>
> Bridgit
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: <tyler at tysdomain.com>, "National Association of Blind Students
> mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <A6CA2458FE0047ABAFE10E060C7CA7BC at OwnerPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Tyler,
> No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one
> due to
> circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does.
> It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more
> home
> based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately
>
> using your own equipment and marking them if needed.
>
> Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about
> receiving
> services from her vr agency?
> They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who
> can
> help her at home.
> Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she
> lives in
> NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there
> are
> two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta.
> Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to
> find
> them.
>
> Ashley
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600
> From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP190722FAF87E9D536CE0B4CC4FF0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Steve,
>
> I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively
> care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids
> just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt
> I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most
> parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along,
> but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we
> require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent,
> hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who
> are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to
> achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only
> enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident.
>
> I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can
> be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this
> situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the
> support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to
> be further explored.
>
> Bridgit
> Message: 18
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <auto-000014396418 at mailback3.g2host.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> RJ,
>
> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case
> such as that of your friend.  In general,
> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might
> mean for bringing up a child in the long
> run.  I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a
> confident independent traveler without putting in
> some serious time learning and experiencing.  If one is not a confident
> traveler, for example, one is going to
> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be,
> or to be there for that child.  Your
> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take
> care of the child, and there could be other
> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to
> take training seems very short-sighted to
> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600
> From: Bridgit Pollpeter <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world
> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP163704548A653B468B90753C4FF0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack
> thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it
> doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly
> when written by a blind person.
>
> Bridgit
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or
> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can
> read a
> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>
>
> > RJ,
> > They do teach job skills. just talk to  a center graduate and you'll
> get
> the
> > answer.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: RJ Sandefur
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >
> > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation
> centers
> > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> > To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
> > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >
> >
> > > Minh,
> > >
> > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as
> an
> > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children,
> > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
> > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
> > >
> > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning
> skills
> > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
> people,
> > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way,
> > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
> > >
> > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without
> > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
> Braille,
> > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills
> > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
> > > training centers are necessary.
> > >
> > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world
> > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
> > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on
> > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
> polite,
> > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room
> appearing to
> > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally,
> an
> > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human
> nature.
> > >
> > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you
> in
> > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
> > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of
> > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people
> would
> > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a
> > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with
> > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
> > >
> > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage
> of
> > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this
> background,
> > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better
> in
> > > school, employment and life in general.
> > >
> > > Bridgit
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
> > > From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> > > Message-ID:
> > >
> > > <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> > >
> > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying
> how
> > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to
> gain
> > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success
> > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment
> > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are
> these
> > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe
> > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years
> of my
> > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I
> learned
> > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one
> of
> > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she
> > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen
> and
> > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much
> > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach
> myself
> > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see
> > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society
> to
> > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many
> > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out
> there
> > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is
> > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
> skills
> > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the
> > > experience.
> > >
> > > Minh
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > nabs-l mailing list
> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> > nabs-l:
> > >
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> > ail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> ink.
> net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
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> 40gm
> ail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500
> From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID:
>
> <CAAJqG9hy7_4hihUL1Ea5Mxm_WBLOy3iPSKm_AtjTBNmMTf190Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until
> until now. I went to public school all my life and had many
> opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held
> leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't
> think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give
> their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them
> for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation,
> which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18
> is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind
> giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't
> otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at
> all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more
> than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as
> cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can
> participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that
> school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to
> ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an
> entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able
> to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful
> support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own
> potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also
> think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well
> instead of waiting on others.
>
> Minh
>
> On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am
> > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my
> > parents thought and what I believe as well.
> >
> > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great
> > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that
> > manner.  I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual
> > person.
> >
> > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been
> > thurroughly confused as to their purpose.  Like others I've talked to,
> > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom
> > used to kick me into gear as a child.  If I didn't want to do my
> > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the
> > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice
> > of doing it right after school or later before bed.  My mom also
> > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very
> > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me
> > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the
> > time.
> >
> > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the
> > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the
> > matter said I was too bright for it.  I have the impression that most
> > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much
> > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in
> > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back
> > from reaching my potential.  So, they enrolled me in my local
> > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from
> > pre-school to graduation.  From what I've seen and heard this is the
> > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable
> > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to
> > be honors and AP students in high school.  Some of these kids do not
> > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and
> > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the
> > process.
> >
> > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability
> > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk
> > about sports.  My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted
> > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine
> > for me.  Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated
> > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school
> > too.  I think the advantage of doing sports through these
> > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is
> > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my
> > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a
> > tag team on the field.  My job was to find the ball and get it down
> > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal.
> > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our
> > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our
> > parents.  I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was
> > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I
> > thought was no apparent reason.  It took me a while to understand that
> > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but
> > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better.
> >  Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for
> > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do
> > at school.  I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club
> > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band
> > without assistance.  I don't think you should expect adaptations or
> > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for
> > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error
> > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is
> > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the
> > future.  Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and
> > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like
> > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects
> > I didn't have as much access to.  This worked out really well in cases
> > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the
> > eye."  In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a
> > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a
> > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions
> > we came up with to work.
> >
> > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of
> > the training for their child.  I know my parents did it for me, and
> > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me
> > learn to be independent.  On that same note, I disagree with the claim
> > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I
> > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back,
> > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn
> > to do things yourself.  That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I
> > love how I'm teaching myself.  Have I burned things?  Yes.  Have I had
> > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I
> > misjudged how cooked it really was?  Yes, but it's through experience
> > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own
> > favor.  In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but
> > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended
> > up taking over.  She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I
> > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that
> > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted,
> > even if my first attempt was not perfect.  Different parents will
> > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have
> > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area.  When those
> > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to
> > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because
> > ultimately it is their independence that is effected.
> >
> > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school,
> > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook
> > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an
> > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and
> > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away
> > from my family.  Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient,
> > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and
> > make them work.  That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the
> > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial.  I could
> > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at
> > least.
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley <mistydbradley at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> RJ,
> >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever
> center
> >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for
> her
> >> to
> >>
> >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory
> >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of
> dormitories,
> >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to
> stay
> >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend
> may
> >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while
> she
> >> is
> >>
> >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the
> center
> >> may
> >>
> >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with
> her
> >> on
> >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully.
> >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother,
> but
> >> the
> >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help
> me
> >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity
> to
> >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to
> attend
> >> next
> >>
> >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to
> me
> >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out
> so
> >> I
> >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to
> allow
> >> me
> >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your
> >> friend
> >>
> >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any
> of
> >> the
> >>
> >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with
> her on
> >> it.
> >> Thanks,
> >> Misty
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Steve Jacobson
> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM
> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>
> >> RJ,
> >>
> >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case
> >> such
> >> as that of your friend.  In general,
> >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well
> might
> >> mean
> >>
> >> for bringing up a child in the long
> >> run.  I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a
> >> confident
> >> independent traveler without putting in
> >> some serious time learning and experiencing.  If one is not a
> confident
> >> traveler, for example, one is going to
> >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to
> be,
> >> or
> >> to be there for that child.  Your
> >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take
> >> care
> >> of the child, and there could be other
> >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child
> to
> >> take
> >>
> >> training seems very short-sighted to
> >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Steve Jacobson
> >>
> >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote:
> >>
> >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four
> years
> >>> ago.
> >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to
> a
> >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "minh ha" <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM
> >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>
> >>
> >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying
> >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to
> >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these
> >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain
> >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills
> >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training
> >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the
> >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired
> over
> >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing
> >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I
> >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we
> >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove,
> >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to
> >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to
> teach
> >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially
> >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain
> >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college
> >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to
> >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I
> can
> >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not
> >>>going to do me any good without the experience.
> >>
> >>>Minh
> >>
> >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>  good points thus far, and great discussion.
> >>>>   The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them)
> is
> >>>that
> >>>> students in these  schools may get  the proper instruction in
> skills
> >>>> that
> >>>> would allow them to be  as successful in the classroom as their
> >>>classmates.
> >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are
> adapted
> >>>> for
> >>>the
> >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not
> always
> >>>readily
> >>>> available .
> >>>>   In the training center environment, you are learning skills that
> will
> >>>help
> >>>> you   become confident and competent enough to  compete and
> succeed
> >>>> in
> >>>the
> >>>> world.  in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills  that
> enable
> >>>> us
> >>>to
> >>>>   be successful and  gain the attitude and belief  that not only
> can we
> >>>> lead  productive  successful, and meaningful lives,  but that  this
> >>>> should
> >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves.
> >>>>  So, while the implication one might get is that such learning
> >>>environments
> >>>> shelter  people  from the  real world , it is my view that
> generally
> >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared  for that  real
> world
> >>>> in
> >>>a
> >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave
> you
> >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do.
> >>>>    Darian
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> >>>> nabs-l:
> >>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c
> om
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--
> >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the
> dusty
> >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
> >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
> >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
> >>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>nabs-l mailing list
> >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>nabs-l:
> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef
> ur%40gm
> >>>ail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>nabs-l mailing list
> >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >>>nabs-l:
> >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40
> visi.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai
> l.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40
> gmail.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kaiti
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c
> om
> >
>
>
> --
> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600
> From: "Loren Wakefield" <theweird1 at mediacombb.net>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
> Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Peter,
>
> Pls write me offlist.  I have some questions for you that I've been told
> you have excellent info on.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter
> Donahue
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM
>
> Theweird1 at mediacombb.net
>
> Loren Wakefield
>
>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Good evening everyone,
>
>     He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael
> California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's
> national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees
> and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One
> area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind
> guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do.
> We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged
> blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog
> program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as
> guide dog instructors.
>
>     Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide
> Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB
> believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our
> guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and
> custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my
> knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog
> Consumer's Bill of Rights.
> If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted
> their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search
> for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that
> document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would
> implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your
> questions.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
>
> Hannah,
> Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks.
> He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which
> school this is although I plan to find out.
>
> Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many
> teams
> are fine.
> I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him
> or
> her better. They know what to do to correct their dog.
> But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole
> dog user group a bad representation.
>
> I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged
> animal
> given the advice so far.
> I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her
> decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new
> environment
> and stress. I hope it?s the right decision.
>
> Ashley
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hannah Chadwick
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM
> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Ashley and Josh,
> Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great
> things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what
> you
> put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in
> to
> your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and
> address
> many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if
> you
> guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has
> never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't
> judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us
> free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I
> strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their
> guides
> and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so
> great.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
> Bramlett
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> I've heard good things about guiding eyes too.
> AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their
> teams
> better than others.
> I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad
> teams.
> It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility
> to
> correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward
> the
> dog too.
>
> Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you
> want,
> not the one in CA.
> You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training.
> Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great  well
> behaved dogs.
> In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that
> cubicle.
>
> They do not make messes.
> They do not sniff excessively.
> And, no they do not get excited contrary  to what Tyler said. They met
> new
> people  all the time and still acted like guide dogs.
>
>
> Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to
> national convention.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua Lester
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Hi Julie.
> You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions.
> I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are!
> The school you trained at is wonderful, as well!
> All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes.
> This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for
> everyone,
> and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has
> turned
> me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act.
> Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with
> your
> school!
> Blessings, Joshua
> ________________________________________
> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity
> [kaybaycar at gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Hi all,
>
> I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is
> worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's
> behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us
> means that she is a responsible dog handeler.  Let's not make
> judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave.  I went on
> college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt
> well with it.  Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about
> how the dog would handle the new situation.  But my dog enjoyed the
> challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized
> we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school.
> Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same.
>
> As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but
> most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing
> people, let alone barking or jumping.  Remember that these dogs guide
> us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we
> are in the streets.  Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it
> to be distracted can be dangerous.  I have faith that the majority of
> dog handlers do the best they can.  The school teaches us how
> important this is after all.
>
> Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating.  :)  I do not anticipate
> being lonely or jobless because I have a dog.  I am dedicated to my
> dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue.  The
> reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a
> little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if
> they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog
> no matter how good the behavior.  Part of the new dog issue is the
> bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other
> part is that using a guide dog is new.  At least, for Lizzy it is.
> But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and
> intelligent.  You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to
> others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure
> you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a
> dog at this college visit.
>
> On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester <JLester8462 at pccua.edu> wrote:
> > Great post, Ashley!
> > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or
> > roam
> > around the room, when not being handled?
> > That has happened way too much where I'm from!
> > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right!
> > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in
> dog,
> > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the
> > Blind!
> > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA,
> because
> > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got
> them!
> > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs!
> > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended!
> > Blessings, Joshua
> > ________________________________________
> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett
> > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
> >
> > Mark,
> > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again.
> > I have been offended by  disruptive guide dogs.
> > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would
> have
> > no
> > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people
> or
> > exhibit other behavior she mentioned.
> > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay
> there.
> >
> > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but
> > when
> > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you
> > might
> > think again.
> >
> > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them
> in
> > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes
> responsibility.
> > You
> > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving
> like a
> > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and
> should
> > I
> > mention barks?
> > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs.
> But to
> > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional
> setting
> > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights
> > comes
> > responsibility.
> > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to
> have
> > a
> > guide dog.
> >
> > Ashley
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark J. Cadigan
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM
> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of
> Guide
> > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are
> > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw
> from
> > when giving advice.
> >
> >
> >
> > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student.
> I
> > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact
> I
> > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people
> say
> > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting
> > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would
> definitely do
> > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but
> to
> > get
> > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a
> > student.
> >
> >
> >
> > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there
> problem
> > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide
> dog,
> > and
> > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being
> > said,
> > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you
> should
> > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights.
> >
> >
> >
> > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with
> > someone
> > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no
> clue
> > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog
> on
> > the
> > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and
> not
> > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but
> they
> > are
> > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Feel free to email me off list
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "lizzy" <lizzym0827 at gmail.com>
> > To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM
> > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
> >
> >
> >> Hi All,
> >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but
> now I
> >> am in need of some help.  I am currently a senior in high school
> going
> >> not
> >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it
> is at
> >> my number one choice school.  To all of the guide dog users, I've had
> my
> >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided
> about
> >> if
> >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip.  My
> reasons
> >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a
> lot
> >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about).
> I've
> >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty
> simple (a
> >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for
> this or
> >> not (since I'll be all over campus).  Also, her behavior is slightly
> >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and
> she is
> >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't
> make
> >> her look like a trained dog).  I will be sitting in on a class, doing
> an
> >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a
> current
> >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs
> or
> >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it.
> I
> >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think
> I'll
> >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours.  But is
> >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about
> the
> >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be
> >> greatly appreciated.
> >> Thanks,
> >> Lizzy
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl
> ink.
> net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae
> du.o
> nmicrosoft.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
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> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
> m
> >
>
>
> --
> Julie McG
> National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National
> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
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> du.o
> nmicrosoft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500
> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my
> perspective is
> that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they
> could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone
> could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back,
> but
> you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea
> of
> going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a
> Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of
> thinking
> drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd
> also
> put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school
> was
> in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth
> the
> investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not
> enroll.
> But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the
> Latino
> culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair
> share
> around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a
> vision
> teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a
> stickler. I
> love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school
> years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed
> up
> with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw
> down
> my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor
> came
> over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and
> found
> the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other
> side
> of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep
> shade
> training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as
> those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route
> to
> get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns
> could
> be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set
> specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not
> everyone
> needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that
> you
> have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and
> deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our
> sighted
> peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers
> could
> do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to
> take a
> break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the
> challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and
> breathing a blindness independence philosophy.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700
> From: johnnie Jean duran <johnniejduran at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher.
> Message-ID:
>
> <CAOiA0Sv2U7ZTHzn9Hg3sV71bWKeumHYkUFm4aD+dZZtN3txnsQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear National Association of Blind Students,
> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending
> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to
> change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically,
> we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was
> cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I
> was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in
> independently. I have cooked food before, and
>
> --
> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran
> 8th Grade Student
> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School
> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The
> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of
> the NFB.
> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran
> Instagram: jj_duran13
> Skype: jj.duran13
> Kik: jjd_13
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700
> From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" <zdreicer at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher.
> Message-ID: <B786878A-999A-409C-95CA-57CCF6926A52 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food
> before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you.
>
> Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver
>
> > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran
> <johnniejduran at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dear National Association of Blind Students,
> > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending
> > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to
> > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically,
> > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was
> > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I
> > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in
> > independently. I have cooked food before, and
> >
> > --
> > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran
> > 8th Grade Student
> > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School
> > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The
> > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of
> > the NFB.
> > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran
> > Instagram: jj_duran13
> > Skype: jj.duran13
> > Kik: jjd_13
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700
> From: johnnie Jean duran <johnniejduran at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question
> Message-ID:
>
> <CAOiA0StKVyKJ1pX6e6sQJ=P33fXhv_uM8jpkMOn8hsuif8hpbA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Dear National Association of Blind Students,
> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending
> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed
> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking
> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the
> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in
> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good
> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I
> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening?
> Do I need an advocate?
> Thanks,
> JJ
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700
> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult
> Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results
> Message-ID:
>
> <CALAYQJBQeMgFp90WTsmptKbgAYZF5jvJtwfrMC3VQERup4=Bew at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> This is the research report I was talking about.
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Edward Bell <ebell at latech.edu>
> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500
> Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and
> Employment Survey:Final Results
> To: NOMCT Committee <certificationtrainersnomct at lists.nbpcb.org>, NOMC
> mailing list <nomc at nbpcb.org>, nclb at lists.nbpcb.org,
> pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list <rehab at nfbnet.org>
>
> Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment
> Survey:Final Results
>
> By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino
>
>
> Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional
> Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech
> University.
>
>
>
> Abstract
> Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United
> States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of
> this study was to determine the current employment status of these
> individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The
> study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement,
> and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to
> determine whether some of the factors could be identified as
> contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the
> employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually
> impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings
> show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in
> annual earnings between men and women. Education and
> rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes;
> where higher educational attainment is associated with better
> employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained
> under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be
> employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally,
> for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white
> cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings
> was higher than those who did not use these tools.
>
>
>
> Keywords
> Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training
> centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery
>
>
>
> Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey
> This study sought to describe the current employment status of
> individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and
> to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it
> explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status
> for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of
> the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the
> literature that analyze the employment situation of people with
> disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related
> to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals.
>
> Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports
> The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United
> States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the
> 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults
> age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as
> individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when
> wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that
> they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau
> of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million
> individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision
> loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working
> age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the
> civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the
> labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported
> month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though
> they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor
> force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population
> ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision
> loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind,
> 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that
> by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the
> vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive
> employment.
>
> The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the
> current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more
> importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic
> factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased
> employment.
>
> Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System
> In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with
> significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social
> services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them
> in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal
> VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial
> support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and
> Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an
> entire array of education and employment preparation institutions
> (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those
> who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems
> worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many
> others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with
> continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends.
>
> The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes
> comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA
> VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with
> employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that
> disability status was the variable that presented the strongest
> negative correlation with employment. The author determined that
> disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment,
> particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females
> with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children,
> were less likely to be employed.
>
> A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of
> individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no
> disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the
> authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability
> groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more
> than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that
> the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of
> disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04%
> were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the
> severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54%
> respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that
> disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the
> likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of
> working were significantly less for respondents with severe
> disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly
> earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe
> disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability.
> According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of
> obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability
> status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more
> likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers.
>
> Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related
> predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who
> received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a
> U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received
> VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services
> (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those
> individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate
> (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were
> individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group,
> gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with
> women being less likely to be employed.
>
> The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment
> specifically for the blind and VI population.
>
> Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System
> Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and
> the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients
> with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for
> Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of
> consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5%
> of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive
> employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in
> sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive
> employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures,
> clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that
> out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the
> legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of
> noncompetitive closures in FY 2007.
>
> According to the literature, there are several factors that predict
> employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age,
> training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent
> across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999)
> found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an
> integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated
> with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a
> primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing,
> and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall
> satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from
> family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology
> training were associated with being employed. In relation to those
> factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they
> identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation
> and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation
> teaching.
>
> In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a
> certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having
> worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to
> rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between
> the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors
> of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009)
> concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated
> with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work
> experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive
> technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of
> employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen,
> and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and
> the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a
> secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of
> employment.
>
> Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor
> had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those
> individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher
> level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by
> Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was
> a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment
> outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision
> loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other
> hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of
> the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR
> services.
>
> The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed
> that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after
> receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were
> legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African
> American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income
> as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special
> education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status,
> Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most
> statistically significant predictors of competitive employment
> outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were
> weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral),
> gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid.
>
> Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors
> mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with
> visual impairments who were competitively employed through the
> state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001)
> concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some
> of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three,
> age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual
> impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings.
> Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of
> education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in
> earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater
> amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at
> closure was for consumers.
>
> An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on
> employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI
> was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served
> these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the
> mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly
> higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition,
> Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a
> relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers
> who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more
> chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001),
> however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was
> not a significant factor impacting on earnings.
>
> >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that
> contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the
> perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to
> the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable
> with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by
> eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held
> to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study
> found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness.
> He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology
> skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails.
> Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their
> competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of
> the work and transportation challenges.
>
> The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those
> factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and
> McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the
> general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to
> print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant.
> Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to
> employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more
> issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those
> who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the
> skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff.
> When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor
> did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help
> in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references;
> provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of
> counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only
> 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to
> obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation
> services helped them to improve their performances, that the services
> made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that
> the services helped them to maintain their jobs.
>
> Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the
> competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind.
> Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911
> data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was
> significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based
> on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have
> shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In
> addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the
> factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race,
> education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned
> $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a
> $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread
> between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings
> had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the
> other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the
> other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by
> 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and
> Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those
> with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of
> being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did
> individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American
> veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where
> they were identified the rates of employment were 19%.
>
> White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and
> having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor
> appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions
> (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers,
> having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work
> experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review,
> Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors
> and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not
> only provide the training that leads to employment but since they
> spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a
> community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s
> vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s
> job.
>
> As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main
> philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods:
> the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured
> Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service
> offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn
> independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent
> approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving
> skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National
> Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on
> experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the
> instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the
> instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an
> orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends
> upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the
> information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the
> Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to
> guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly
> relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages
> the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National
> Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012).
>
> The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the
> different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind
> or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his
> study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of
> the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the
> philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional
> and alternative approaches related to functional independence,
> individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a
> measure of functional independence than those trained in the
> conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of
> training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by
> examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are
> employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the
> shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately
> utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size
> was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training
> approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences
> were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between
> those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were
> trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya
> (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white
> cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of
> independent living.
>
> Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles
> (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that
> predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment
> rates and higher education levels than reading print as original
> medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized
> Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower
> unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original
> reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille
> as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for
> employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used
> Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at
> a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print
> did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read
> Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing
> updated Braille skills represented an important factor that
> contributed to successful work experiences for their employees.
>
> Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher
> education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore
> the use of different reading media. They found out that the most
> significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual
> status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille.
> Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the
> increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with
> training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established
> tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the
> frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that
> efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in
> Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age
> at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille
> courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age.
>
> Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure,
> and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some
> training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement
> for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008)
> while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training
> elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly
> reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles,
> 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what
> constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille.
>
> Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated
> the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective
> outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., &
> Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer
> interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation
> process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as
> well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as
> effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision
> making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995).
> Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation,
> social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support
> interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig,
> 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population,
> self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a
> consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation
> process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005).
> However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of
> families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that
> put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that
> promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What
> research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve
> as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education
> can impact greater growth and evolution.
>
> Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that
> among the reasons participants thought they were successful in
> overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing
> networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a
> relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to
> others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the
> employment barriers. According to participants in this study,
> rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring
> opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired.
> The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could
> assist those who seek employment in generating support systems.
>
> Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a
> consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient
> testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their
> involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely.
> Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives
> of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent
> and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as
> positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with
> proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal,
> successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to
> the new generations.
>
> Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture
> a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally
> blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study
> sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement,
> and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to
> determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable
> through education or training) could be identified as contributing to
> the employment outcomes of these individuals.
>
> Research Questions. The following research questions served as the
> guiding principles for this study.
>
> Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a
> national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research
> findings on the subject?
> Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial
> identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of
> employment and wages for this population?
> Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation
> with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with
> higher rates of employment and wages for this population?
> Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college,
> adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with
> increased rates of employment and wages for this population?
>
> Method
> Participants
> The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI
> adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United
> States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an
> average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals
> were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%),
> who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56
> Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native
> Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific
> Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who
> reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%).
>
> Instruments
> The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult
> Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79
> variables, covering (a) general demographics including living
> situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and
> consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e)
> employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future
> research.
>
> Procedures
> All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent
> document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of
> requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a
> notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study
> was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional
> Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for
> participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting
> the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of
> the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a
> research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten
> minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August
> 31, 2011.
>
> Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of
> the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment
> situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the
> United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach
> individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status.
> The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all
> available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the
> blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National
> Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically
> to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office
> with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The
> invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve
> the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for
> the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The
> request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and
> adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000
> requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers
> that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000
> print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011
> annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the
> participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were
> distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America
> Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters
> and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social
> media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth.
>
> Results
> Demographics
> Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were
> captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample
> population that comprised this study. The respondents were
> representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being
> from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from
> Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind
> (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table
> 1).
>
> Table 1 ? Demographics
>
>       Age
>
>
>
>       n
>      Mean
>      SD
>
>       1056
>      46.47
>      13.81
>
>
>      Range
>      18-87
>
>
>
>
>
>       Gender
>      Frequency
>      Percent
>
>        Female
>      595
>      56.34
>
>        Male
>      461
>      43.66
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      100
>
>
>
>
>
>       Race/Ethnicity
>      Frequency
>      Percent
>
>       African American, Black
>      90
>      8.52
>
>       Asian American, Asian
>      35
>      3.31
>
>       Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican)
>      56
>      5.3
>
>       Native American, Alaska Native
>      8
>      0.76
>
>       Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander
>      4
>      0.38
>
>       Other
>      27
>      2.56
>
>       White or Caucasian
>      836
>      79.17
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      100
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       Vision Status
>      Frequency
>      Percent
>
>       Blind
>      702
>      66.48
>
>       Visually Impaired
>      354
>      33.52
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      100
>
>
> Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital
> status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority
> of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that
> they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported
> living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of
> this population are currently married (45%), while just under two
> percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample
> (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next
> largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report
> having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%)
> report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the
> community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in
> small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second
> largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between
> 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided
> in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder
> fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2).
>
> Table 2 ? Family and Community
>
>
>       Living Situation Frequency
>      percent
>
>       Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am
> purchasing
>      541
>      51.23
>
>       Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property
> that I pay for
>      300
>      28.41
>
>       Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home
>      130
>      12.31
>
>       Live in dormitory or other institution
>      25
>      2.37
>
>       Share an apartment or rental property with room mates
>      60
>      5.68
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      100
>
>
>
>
>
>       Marital Status
>      Frequency
>      Percent
>
>        Divorced
>      107
>      10.13
>
>        Married
>      475
>      44.98
>
>        Separated
>      22
>      2.08
>
>        Single
>      353
>      33.43
>
>        Widow or widower
>      18
>      1.7
>
>        With significant other person
>      81
>      7.67
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      99.99
>
>
>
>
>
>       Raising Children
>      Frequency
>      Percent
>
>       No, I have no children
>      605
>      57.29
>
>       1 child
>      133
>      12.59
>
>       2 children
>      176
>      16.67
>
>       3 children
>      80
>      7.58
>
>       4 children
>      35
>      3.31
>
>       5 children
>      11
>      1.04
>
>       6 or more children
>      16
>      1.52
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      100
>
>
>
>
>
>       Population of Your Community
>      Frequency
>      Percent
>
>       1-25,000 People
>      245
>      23.2
>
>       25,001?75,000 People
>      240
>      22.73
>
>       75,001?150,000 People
>      121
>      11.46
>
>       150,001?250,000 People
>      104
>      9.85
>
>       250,001?500,000 People
>      89
>      8.43
>
>       500,001?1,000,000 People
>      121
>      11.46
>
>       1,000,001?2,000,001?larger
>      136
>      12.88
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      100.01
>
>
> Vocational Rehabilitation and Education
> The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to
> VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss
> training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with
> their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that
> they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know
> (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported
> having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411
> individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case.
> When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to
> blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or
> daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have
> never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual
> impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed
> (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program.
> Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a
> residential or day program, but that they did not complete their
> training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they
> attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received
> training in their home or school.
>
> While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training,
> this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive
> some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their
> training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals
> who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were
> at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when
> they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use
> of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated,
> ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught
> using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n =
> 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between
> my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked
> whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that
> they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544
> individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and
> 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When
> asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for
> current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is
> lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A
> folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249
> individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in
> height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower
> than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they
> used another type of cane/mobility device.
>
> Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of
> Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille
> at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the
> entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%),
> while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%).
> When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read
> Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently
> read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read
> Braille (41.95%).
>
> With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about
> their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation
> training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training.
> Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and
> percentage of individuals by educational level before and after
> rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of
> individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from
> pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they
> attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in
> education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend
> rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201
> individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help
> them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282
> individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals
> (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was
> either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to
> increase in their educational attainment.
>
> Table 3 -- Education
>
>
>       Education
>       Before VR Frequency
>      Percent
>      Education
>       After VR
>      Frequency
>      Percent
>
>       Less than High School
>      194
>      18.37
>      Less than High School
>      13
>      1.23
>
>       High School diploma/GED
>      349
>      33.05
>      High School diploma/GED
>      49
>      4.64
>
>       Some college, but no degree
>      148
>      14.02
>      Some college, but no degree
>      141
>      13.35
>
>       Associates Degree/AA
>      50
>      4.73
>      Associates Degree/AA
>      76
>      7.2
>
>       Vocational or Trade school
>      15
>      1.42
>      Vocational or Trade school
>      53
>      5.02
>
>       Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree
>      147
>      13.92
>      Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree
>      246
>      23.3
>
>       Master?s/Graduate Degree
>      72
>      6.82
>      Master?s/Graduate Degree
>      238
>      22.54
>
>       Law Degree
>      12
>      1.14
>      Law Degree
>      21
>      1.99
>
>       Doctorate degree/post graduate training
>      17
>      1.61
>      Doctorate degree/post graduate training
>      46
>      4.36
>
>       Not sure or
>       Not applicable
>      52
>      4.92
>      Not sure or
>       Not applicable
>      173
>      16.38
>
>       Pre Training
>      1056
>      100
>      Post Training
>      1056
>      100.01
>
>
> Consumer and Civic Involvement
> Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer
> organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who
> affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with
> both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the
> NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer
> organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of
> consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%)
> reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397
> individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no
> leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local
> or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national
> leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold
> several positions at the local, state, and/or national level.
>
> Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which
> participants participated in other community and/or civic activities
> in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least
> one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number
> of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%)
> stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or
> place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding
> leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four
> individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals
> (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals
> (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and
> 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic
> groups.
>
> Employment
> One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the
> employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and
> specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation.
> As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed
> prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%)
> were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR
> services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed
> full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained
> unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of
> individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who
> were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this
> survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For
> these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD =
> $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary
> of $35,000.
>
> Table 4 ? Employment Status
>
>
>       Before VR Frequency
>      Percentage
>      After VR
>      Frequency
>      Percentage
>
>       Full-time employed
>      192
>      18.18
>      Full-Time
>      393
>      37.22
>
>       Part-time employed
>      86
>      8.14
>      Part-Time
>      142
>      13.45
>
>       Full-time college or vocational student
>      119
>      11.27
>      Full-Time College
>      72
>      6.82
>
>       Volunteer part- or full-time
>      33
>      3.13
>      Vol. F-P
>      45
>      4.26
>
>       Full-time Homemaker
>      26
>      2.46
>      Homemaker
>      21
>      1.99
>
>       Retired from previous employment
>      35
>      3.31
>      Retired
>      76
>      7.2
>
>       Unemployed
>      512
>      48.48
>      Unemployed
>      307
>      29.07
>
>       N/A, I never had a VR case before
>      53
>      5.02
>
>
>
>
>       Total
>      1056
>      99.99
>      *
>      1056
>      100.01
>
>
> Information was also collected with respect to the availability of
> fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants
> reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical
> insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals
> (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332
> individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning
> available to them through their work.
>
> Factors that Impact on Employment
> The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general
> demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment
> characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are
> blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment,
> it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and
> educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors
> that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The
> demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are
> representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR
> data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of
> the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not
> know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%)
> of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that
> their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample
> whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of
> individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis
> will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR
> services and who should most likely be available for participation in
> the workforce.
>
> Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic
> classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to
> determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The
> data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the
> consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was
> there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of
> participants.
>
> Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind
> or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those
> with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a
> greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant
> difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21,
> RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a
> rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually
> impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does
> exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were
> non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind
> individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning
> $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant
> differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were
> employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant
> difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45,
> p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females
> earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported
> racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences
> were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings.
>
> Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI
> help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data
> demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) =
> 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in
> the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the
> NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no
> participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed
> at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on
> annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members
> earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning
> $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization
> earning $38,200.
>
> Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that
> are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to
> evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e.,
> education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010)
> demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading
> factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact
> in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist,
> this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills
> training through comprehensive residential and day training programs.
> Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white
> cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools
> used by individuals who are blind or VI.
>
> The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the
> employment status of participants based on the level of education that
> had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further
> analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or
> who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those
> who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%;
> those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%;
> and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of
> 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the
> annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS =
> .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high
> school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500;
> those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a
> master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral
> degree earning $66,900 annually.
>
> When participants were asked whether they had completed training at
> any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split
> almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed
> training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving
> training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment
> outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a
> more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a
> significant difference based on the method or type of training that
> was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data
> demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a
> Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of
> 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional
> training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either
> received training at home, or who received no formal skills training
> were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these
> individuals was examined, the data again showed significant
> differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend
> continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a
> Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302;
> those who received their training at conventional centers earned an
> average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no
> formal training earned an average of $42,753.
>
> Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e.,
> the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the
> literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for
> example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on
> employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based
> training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one
> concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion
> that those who return for training multiple times have significantly
> less employment than those who only obtain training a single time
> (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained
> training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving
> training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same
> trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS =
> .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and
> those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275.
>
> More specifically, this research was interested in several specific
> training variables and their impact on employment. The data
> demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long
> white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report
> currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were
> evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that
> individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed
> at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) =
> 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of
> 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%.
> The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income
> of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users
> earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average
> of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were
> next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to
> employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference
> (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane
> that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%,
> those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height
> being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other?
> device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly,
> the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings
> (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users
> earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning
> $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000.
>
> The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of
> Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population.
> Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at
> some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63%
> reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers
> employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille?
> The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1,
> 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed
> at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a
> rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more
> significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille
> readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning
> an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in
> annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that
> Braille has on employment and salary.
>
> Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant
> impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By
> combining the most salient factors together, the results show even
> more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who
> complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center,
> continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane
> for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of
> 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those
> individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no
> formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer
> organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed
> at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually.
>
> Discussion
> The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in
> the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study
> was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and
> to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research.
> In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors,
> education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this
> population in order to determine whether some of them could be
> identified as contributing to the employment outcomes.
>
> The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since
> this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of
> rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of
> 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of
> demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on
> employment, the following were found to be the most salient:
>
>   a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI
> are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly
> similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for
> this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing
> research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that
> there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years.
>   b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have
> access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to
> dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement
> planning.
>   c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly
> equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on
> average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are
> consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg,
> 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009).
>   d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of
> employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics,
> such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification.
>   e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were
> employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who
> affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning
> $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization
> tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB
> members.
>   f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational
> attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this
> population, with those having graduate-level education being employed
> at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma,
> and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings.
>   g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively
> related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured
> Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning
> $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based
> programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These
> results confirm those of Aditya (2004).
>   h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times),
> was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who
> receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in
> comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%,
> and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were
> trained a single time.
>   i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily
> mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a
> significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do.
>   j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed
> at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille
> readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers.
>   k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete
> training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the
> NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a
> rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually.
>   l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not
> trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use
> a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning
> only $36,000 annually.
>
>
> Implications
> The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains
> extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may
> help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint
> and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of
> competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases.
> Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to
> have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers
> and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the
> benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of
> these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to
> make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of
> the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners
> should know that:
>
>   a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment
> need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment.
>   b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive
> difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money
> that one can earn.
>   c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to
> be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment.
>   d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good
> idea.
>   e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes
> good sense.
>   f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than
> getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments.
>
>
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>
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> empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age.
>
> Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment
> outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation
> program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities.
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> Science, 70(4-A), 1181.
>
> Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003).
> Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development
> relationships and individuals with disabilities. American
> Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49.
>
>
>
> Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC
>
> REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB)
> Exam
> http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php
>
> Director, Professional Development and Research
> Institute on Blindness
> Louisiana Tech University
> 210 Woodard Hall
> PO Box 3158
> Ruston LA  71272
> Office: 318.257.4554
> Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax)
> Skype: edwardbell2010
> ebell at latech.edu
> www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness
> ********************
> "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of
> Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal
> talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops."
> -- Stephen Jay Gould
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700
> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question
> Message-ID:
>
> <CALAYQJBCnR6rXPc_JtcQTDCEVg-h=y_htbBHFbziLHrxnfz6gg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi JJ,
>
> I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of
> experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you?
> Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should
> participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your
> side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting
> Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate
> for you. I live in Colorado and would  be happy to talk with your TVI
> as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are
> supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI
> and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a
> para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this
> arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can
> still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the
> class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the
> class start?
>
> Arielle
>
> On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran <johnniejduran at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear National Association of Blind Students,
> > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending
> > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed
> > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking
> > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the
> > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in
> > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good
> > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I
> > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening?
> > Do I need an advocate?
> > Thanks,
> > JJ
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co
> m
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800
> From: Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID:
>
> <CACUFQdyMNsQKuHcpK+_6bP47BnGHpytinHy-Jyyip8Bg32GB5Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it
> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was
> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not,
> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped
> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a
> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing
> it, but I have also gotten some.
>
> Cindy
>
> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or
> > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can
> read
> > a
> > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM
> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >
> >
> >> RJ,
> >> They do teach job skills. just talk to  a center graduate and you'll
> get
> > the
> >> answer.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: RJ Sandefur
> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM
> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>
> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation
> >> centers
> >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> >> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
> >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>
> >>
> >> > Minh,
> >> >
> >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight
> as an
> >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially
> children,
> >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
> >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
> >> >
> >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning
> >> > skills
> >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
> >> > people,
> >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way,
> >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
> >> >
> >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without
> >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
> Braille,
> >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized
> skills
> >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
> >> > training centers are necessary.
> >> >
> >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world
> >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
> >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on
> >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
> polite,
> >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room
> appearing
> >> > to
> >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally,
> an
> >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human
> nature.
> >> >
> >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded
> you in
> >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
> >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of
> >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people
> would
> >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a
> >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with
> >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
> >> >
> >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the
> advantage of
> >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this
> background,
> >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better
> in
> >> > school, employment and life in general.
> >> >
> >> > Bridgit
> >> > Message: 3
> >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
> >> > From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >> > Message-ID:
> >> >
> >> >
> <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >> >
> >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep
> saying
> >> > how
> >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to
> gain
> >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these
> success
> >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment
> >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are
> these
> >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers?
> Maybe
> >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years
> of
> >> > my
> >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I
> learned
> >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one
> of
> >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she
> >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the
> kitchen
> >> > and
> >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much
> >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach
> myself
> >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see
> >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society
> to
> >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many
> >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out
> >> > there
> >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is
> >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
> skills
> >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without
> the
> >> > experience.
> >> >
> >> > Minh
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> >> nabs-l:
> >> >
> >>
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> >> ail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl
> ink.
> > net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >>
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> > ail.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Cindy Bennett
> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
>
> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
> clb5590 at gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700
> From: Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> Message-ID:
>
> <CALAYQJCd3=XmSwpUof8FLgKLon6GPSvNHvjjs7821s-Zpyc9fA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi all,
>
> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit
> described would be really excellent to have in  every state. I know a
> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great
> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as
> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors
> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least,
> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with
> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of
> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most
> and tend to get it least.
> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain
> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in
> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school
> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to
> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address,
> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who
> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to
> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if
> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community
> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed
> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to
> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic
> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know
> exactly how.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it
> > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was
> > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not,
> > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped
> > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a
> > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing
> > it, but I have also gotten some.
> >
> > Cindy
> >
> > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or
> >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can
> >> read
> >> a
> >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>
> >>
> >>> RJ,
> >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to  a center graduate and you'll
> get
> >> the
> >>> answer.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: RJ Sandefur
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM
> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>>
> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation
> >>> centers
> >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
> >>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Minh,
> >>> >
> >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight
> as
> >>> > an
> >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially
> children,
> >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
> >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
> >>> >
> >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning
> >>> > skills
> >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
> >>> > people,
> >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way,
> >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
> >>> >
> >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people
> without
> >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
> >>> > Braille,
> >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized
> skills
> >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
> >>> > training centers are necessary.
> >>> >
> >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the
> world
> >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
> >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on
> >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
> >>> > polite,
> >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room
> appearing
> >>> > to
> >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally,
> an
> >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human
> nature.
> >>> >
> >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded
> you
> >>> > in
> >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
> >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of
> >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people
> would
> >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as
> a
> >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with
> >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
> >>> >
> >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the
> advantage
> >>> > of
> >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this
> background,
> >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better
> in
> >>> > school, employment and life in general.
> >>> >
> >>> > Bridgit
> >>> > Message: 3
> >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
> >>> > From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
> >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
> >>> > Message-ID:
> >>> >
> >>> >
> <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >>> >
> >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep
> saying
> >>> > how
> >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to
> gain
> >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these
> success
> >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment
> >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are
> >>> > these
> >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers?
> Maybe
> >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years
> of
> >>> > my
> >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I
> learned
> >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one
> of
> >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together;
> she
> >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the
> kitchen
> >>> > and
> >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too
> much
> >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach
> myself
> >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't
> see
> >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society
> to
> >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had
> many
> >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out
> >>> > there
> >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is
> >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
> >>> > skills
> >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without
> the
> >>> > experience.
> >>> >
> >>> > Minh
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > _______________________________________________
> >>> > nabs-l mailing list
> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> >>> ail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> >>> nabs-l:
> >>>
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl
> ink.
> >> net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> nabs-l mailing list
> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>>
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%
> 40gm
> >> ail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cindy Bennett
> > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
> >
> > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
> > clb5590 at gmail.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co
> m
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700
> From: johnnie Jean duran <johnniejduran at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question
> Message-ID:
>
> <CAOiA0Svn8f2EJ=p2n2khJtGEvzt3O4Q108-aYJOkQGzh_C9F6Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Arielle:
> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this
> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not
> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for
> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of
> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even
> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me
> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails
> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However,
> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see
> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to
> them, it might change their mind.
> Thank you so much Arielle!
> JJ
>
> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi JJ,
> >
> > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of
> > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you?
> > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should
> > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your
> > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting
> > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate
> > for you. I live in Colorado and would  be happy to talk with your TVI
> > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are
> > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI
> > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a
> > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this
> > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can
> > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the
> > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the
> > class start?
> >
> > Arielle
> >
> > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran <johnniejduran at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Dear National Association of Blind Students,
> >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student
> attending
> >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is
> allowed
> >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking
> >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the
> >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in
> >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good
> >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that
> I
> >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening?
> >> Do I need an advocate?
> >> Thanks,
> >> JJ
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co
> m
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai
> l.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran
> 8th Grade Student
> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School
> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The
> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of
> the NFB.
> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran
> Instagram: jj_duran13
> Skype: jj.duran13
> Kik: jjd_13
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800
> From: Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>, National Association of Blind Students
> mailing
> list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question
> Message-ID:
> <mailman.23357.1384220633.28931.nabs-l_nfbnet.org at nfbnet.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Hi, jJ,
>
>          What the hell is a para?
> for today, Car
> 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote:
> >Arielle:
> >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this
> >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not
> >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for
> >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of
> >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even
> >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me
> >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails
> >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However,
> >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see
> >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to
> >them, it might change their mind.
> >Thank you so much Arielle!
> >JJ
> >
> >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi JJ,
> > >
> > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot
> of
> > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you?
> > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you
> should
> > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your
> > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting
> > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate
> > > for you. I live in Colorado and would  be happy to talk with your
> TVI
> > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are
> > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI
> > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a
> > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this
> > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you
> can
> > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in
> the
> > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does
> the
> > > class start?
> > >
> > > Arielle
> > >
> > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran <johnniejduran at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students,
> > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student
> attending
> > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is
> allowed
> > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking
> > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and
> the
> > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me
> in
> > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am
> good
> > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting
> that I
> > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't
> listening?
> > >> Do I need an advocate?
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> JJ
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> nabs-l:
> > >>
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> m
> > >>
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran
> >8th Grade Student
> >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School
> >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The
> >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of
> >the NFB.
> >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran
> >Instagram: jj_duran13
> >Skype: jj.duran13
> >Kik: jjd_13
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17
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