[nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY????
justin williams
justin.williams2 at gmail.com
Wed Nov 13 20:42:15 UTC 2013
I will admit, the calculus and math stopped me in my tracks. I didn't have
the natural ability as do some of us, and I wasn't about to struggle through
something which would take me that much effort. I admire you folks who can
do so however. Big thumb ups for you Kaiti for self-teaching yourself
through that course.
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 3:38 PM
To: tyler at tysdomain.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY????
Ian,
I do wish there were better ways for students to be prepared in things like
that that are really visual. Your trouble with calculus is sort of similar
to what I'm working through with a music theory course that involves
graphing. I was not taught this in my high school theory course because it
is usually not taught at the undergraduate level, and there really isn't a
braille system for doing it so braille music does me no good. That, coupled
with the fact that I had to step up and teach myself braille music because
my TVI refused to teach me in high school, are presenting me with what
sounds like a similar problem. I'll make it through, but teaching some of
these specialized concepts to blind students, especially once they've
identified the career they want to go into and their plans call for such
knowledge, is an issue that I feel really needs to be addressed with
parents, TVIs, and colleges and universities.
On 11/13/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> If only, Tyler... a like button would be nice, but I agree with you.
>
> I think what happens far too often, that is the source of all these
> problems that blind students face, is that they are lazy as Ian said.
> I have heard my share of stories from people who say, "Well, I
> shouldn't have to do this because it's not fair," or they try to pawn
> their responsibilities off on the teacher or some other entity with
> the parent going to bat for them, vicariously pulling the blind card.
> I am not saying teachers and others do not have certain
> responsibilities in the education of blind students, as Ian is right
> in that a lot of people do, but the student has responsibilities too.
> It is not always fair; I can remember doing much more work and taking
> much more time to do it than my sighted classmates, and it is
> something I am even dealing with now in one of my music theory classes
> in college. What takes some students an hour can take me three or
> four, and from what I've seen I seem to have a lot more frustration
> with it because it is visual and therefore more difficult for me to
> understand, but that's all we can do if we want to succeed. Work
> harder, smarter, and be more diligent in our studies and other aspects
> of our lives than our typical classmates. That is something we will
> face in the real world, and that is why it is the responsibility of
> the parents to teach their children this concept at an early age. I
> wish all parents would reem their kids for this kind of behavior the
> first time they see it---for me it was about 4th grade, and I credit
> my parents and my TVI with catching it early and preventing this
> attitude to prevail through the rest of my education. It has served
> me well. But, I also credit my parents with fighting for me, for
> picking up the school's slack at times, and for teaching me all they
> could. They made sure I got into music theory classes before college
> so I could come in ahead, they made sure I took AP courses so I could
> get used to the volume of material that would be covered in a college
> course, and they helped me to be prepared to be independent and
> function away from home. Were they perfect? By no means no, but they
> tried to do the best they could with the things Ian pointed out.
>
> I think a lot of the responsibility falls on the parents, because they
> have to oversee the school following through, as well as the child.
> Parents can make all the difference in the world.
>
> On 11/13/13, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>> Ian:
>> Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this
>> message, though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it
>> whoosh over their heads and those who understand your point are
>> already putting a lot of this into practice anyway.
>>
>> On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote:
>>> To all of whom have posted on this thread.
>>>
>>> While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness
>>> skills, education, and professional careers, there is something we
>>> all have in common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I
>>> myself have had problems in both Public School, in College, and
>>> Adult Blindness Training Centers.
>>> Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism,
>>> and my objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going
>>> to indicate which schools I attended.
>>> I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school
>>> for the Blind".
>>> Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind
>>> students.
>>> Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These
>>> institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus,
>>> Listening Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an
>>> eventual High School equelevant Education. All of this is
>>> presumptive that the student is capable of attaining that High
>>> School Education.
>>> There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic
>>> conditions who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of
>>> attaining much more for themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years
>>> later.
>>> I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in
>>> my Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to
>>> Engineering School with the full support of my math, physics, and
>>> myguidance counselors.
>>> I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The
>>> plain & simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the
>>> ability to use alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were
>>> useless because I was too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't
>>> understand and trying to decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level
>>> of Mathematics I did not understand the point of.
>>> Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what
>>> they are trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND
>>> until AFTER YOU ARE FINISHED.
>>> For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just
>>> because you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision
>>> impairment is absurd.
>>> The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't
>>> or don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what
>>> they need, want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous.
>>> Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are
>>> correct; The education is not up to higher Public Education
>>> Standards. Simillarly, Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and
>>> Secondary ) are required by Federal Law to provide EVERY student
>>> presented to them a suitable Education. At this point, is up to
>>> parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's opportunity.
>>> Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be successful
>>> because parents are not often aware of their options. School
>>> Systems take this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money
>>> they are already short on toward the specific needs of a
>>> substantially small number of students.
>>> College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger
>>> population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource
>>> Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to
>>> the importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you
>>> are STILL going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time,
>>> andinsufficient training of instructors.
>>> I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time
>>> with regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive
>>> Curricula"
>>> seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to
>>> modiffy or enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the
>>> actual number of those who actually do.
>>> Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it...
>>> which
>>> usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly.
>>> Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The
>>> truthful answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's
>>> responsibility.
>>>
>>> When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab.
>>> Center,
>>> or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for
>>> learning the material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often
>>> is involved with textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and
>>> you ar going to have to utilize whatever protest options available
>>> until you are so tired of it that it seems worthless.
>>> You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the
>>> mired-down attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed
>>> that they are illequipped to help you.
>>>
>>> ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are
>>> supposed to help you, and when things go wrong, you seek
>>> appointments with Department Heads, University Provosts, and
>>> Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go to the Accredidation
>>> boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding comes from and
>>> you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save
>>> coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you
>>> have
>>> 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the
>>> desire to make lots of money and you get things worked out.
>>> Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes
>>> there is, but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late.
>>> Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy.
>>> Insist upon having your instructors explain verbally, things that
>>> you are not able to see. Remain professional, and polite at all
>>> times. Get a friend to take pictures so someone can describe them
>>> later. When a professor tells you you are not allowed to record his
>>> lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent it.
>>> If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by
>>> that Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head,
>>> or Provost.
>>> Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to
>>> the situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have
>>> to be that useless flashlight for the sighted community.
>>> Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you
>>> think your instructor is.
>>> Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee
>>> instructors attitudes change.
>>> Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a
>>> ridiculous notion. You may one day need it.
>>> Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age!
>>> The
>>> more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read
>>> ahead in your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you
>>> before you hear it.
>>> Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early,
>>> and check it over it until you know it's right.
>>> Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask
>>> questions!!
>>> Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if
>>> you are wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested
>>> and engaged in your learning that will help you succeed.
>>> Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately,
>>> you are responsible for what happens to you.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ian C. Bray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bridget Walker" <bridgetawalker13 at aol.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>
>>>
>>> : Hi Katy,
>>> :
>>> : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to
>>> a school for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum
>>> but that is just what happened to me. Do I know it's down right
>>> illegal? Absolutely, as a future educator I will never let something
>>> like this happen. People always ask me if I would teach at a school
>>> for the blind because for some reason they think its easier. I
>>> always say no. We need more teachers who are blind setting an
>>> example in the public school.
>>> : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I
>>> feel misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in
>>> their own little world. A person without sleight can't function
>>> without all these modifications when we all know that we just use some
minor adaptations.
>>> It's
>>> a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my
>>> techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as
>>> any other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same.
>>> :
>>> : Bridget
>>> :
>>> : Sent from my iPad
>>> :
>>> : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton
>>> <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> :
>>> : > Bridget,
>>> : >
>>> : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for
>>> the
>>> : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across
>>> the
>>> : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools.
>>> Of
>>> : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are
>>> certainly not
>>> : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like
>>> you
>>> : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror
>>> stories
>>> : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people
>>> who
>>> : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in
>>> there
>>> : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good,
>>> and now
>>> : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid
>>> because
>>> : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very
>>> low. I
>>> : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed
>>> kids
>>> : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at
>>> least,
>>> : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two
>>> years of
>>> : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind
>>> : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know
>>> plenty
>>> : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because
>>> they've
>>> : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be
>>> in
>>> : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to
>>> qualify
>>> : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I
>>> could
>>> : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college.
>>> : >
>>> : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her
>>> comment made
>>> : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school
>>> districts
>>> : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of
>>> their
>>> : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is
>>> : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should
>>> be
>>> : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant
>>> : > descrimination.
>>> : >
>>> : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi <denverqueen1107 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>>> : >>> Hi all,
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread,
>>> as I am
>>> : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what
>>> my
>>> : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well.
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're
>>> great
>>> : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in
>>> that
>>> : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the
>>> individual
>>> : >>> person.
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been
>>> : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've
>>> talked to,
>>> : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat
>>> my mom
>>> : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do
>>> my
>>> : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School
>>> for the
>>> : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get
>>> the choice
>>> : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom
>>> also
>>> : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me
>>> at a very
>>> : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial
>>> over me
>>> : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do
>>> at the
>>> : >>> time.
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me
>>> to the
>>> : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they
>>> consulted on the
>>> : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression
>>> that most
>>> : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a
>>> much
>>> : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple
>>> disabilities in
>>> : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me
>>> back
>>> : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local
>>> : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system
>>> from
>>> : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this
>>> is the
>>> : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are
>>> capable
>>> : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and
>>> going on to
>>> : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids
>>> do not
>>> : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the
>>> blind, and
>>> : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in
>>> the
>>> : >>> process.
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's
>>> ability
>>> : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you
>>> specifically talk
>>> : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which
>>> hosted
>>> : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out
>>> fine
>>> : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine
>>> participated
>>> : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle
>>> school
>>> : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these
>>> : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the
>>> blind is
>>> : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities;
>>> one of my
>>> : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we
>>> became a
>>> : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it
>>> down
>>> : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the
>>> goal.
>>> : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our
>>> : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the
>>> design of our
>>> : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team
>>> who was
>>> : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what
>>> I
>>> : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to
>>> understand that
>>> : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help
>>> it, but
>>> : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him
>>> better.
>>> : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set
>>> up for
>>> : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found
>>> activities to do
>>> : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the
>>> drama club
>>> : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching
>>> band
>>> : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect
>>> adaptations or
>>> : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the
>>> schools for
>>> : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and
>>> error
>>> : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted
>>> classmates, is
>>> : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things
>>> in the
>>> : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in
>>> braille, and
>>> : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on,
>>> like
>>> : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other
>>> subjects
>>> : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well
>>> in cases
>>> : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy
>>> of the
>>> : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up
>>> with a
>>> : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge
>>> is a
>>> : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the
>>> solutions
>>> : >>> we came up with to work.
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a
>>> lot of :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it
>>> for me, and
>>> : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to
>>> help me
>>> : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with
>>> the claim
>>> : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as
>>> I
>>> : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should
>>> step back,
>>> : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to
>>> learn
>>> : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with
>>> cooking, and I
>>> : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes.
>>> Have I had
>>> : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer
>>> because I
>>> : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through
>>> experience
>>> : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our
>>> own
>>> : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me
>>> before, but
>>> : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has
>>> ended
>>> : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so
>>> when I
>>> : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the
>>> fact that
>>> : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I
>>> wanted,
>>> : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents
>>> will
>>> : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes
>>> they have
>>> : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When
>>> those
>>> : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and
>>> capability to
>>> : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because
>>> : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected.
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public
>>> school,
>>> : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a
>>> textbook
>>> : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out
>>> in an
>>> : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and
>>> : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an
>>> hour away
>>> : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more
>>> self-sufficient,
>>> : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go,
>>> problem-solve, and
>>> : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at
>>> the
>>> : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial.
>>> I could
>>> : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school
>>> at
>>> : >>> least.
>>> : >>>
>>> : >>> Just my thoughts.
>>> : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley <mistydbradley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> : >>>> RJ,
>>> : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of
>>> whichever
>>> : >>>> center
>>> : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be
>>> made for her
>>> : >>>> to
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a
>>> dormitory
>>> : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of
>>> : >>>> dormitories,
>>> : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their
>>> child to
>>> : >>>> stay
>>> : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your
>>> friend may
>>> : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the
>>> child while she
>>> : >>>> is
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of
>>> the center
>>> : >>>> may
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or
>>> work with her
>>> : >>>> on
>>> : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training
>>> successfully.
>>> : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single
>>> mother, but
>>> : >>>> the
>>> : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and
>>> also help me
>>> : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the
>>> opportunity to
>>> : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning
>>> to attend
>>> : >>>> next
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very
>>> open to me
>>> : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work
>>> everything out so
>>> : >>>> I
>>> : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my
>>> state to allow
>>> : >>>> me
>>> : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center,
>>> but your
>>> : >>>> friend
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the
>>> directors of any of
>>> : >>>> the
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work
>>> with her
>>> : >>>> on
>>> : >>>> it.
>>> : >>>> Thanks,
>>> : >>>> Misty
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson
>>> : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM
>>> : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> RJ,
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an
>>> individual case
>>> : >>>> such
>>> : >>>> as that of your friend. In general,
>>> : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills
>>> well might
>>> : >>>> mean
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long
>>> : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to
>>> become a
>>> : >>>> confident
>>> : >>>> independent traveler without putting in
>>> : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a
>>> confident
>>> : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to
>>> : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child
>>> needs to be,
>>> : >>>> or
>>> : >>>> to be there for that child. Your
>>> : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who
>>> could take
>>> : >>>> care
>>> : >>>> of the child, and there could be other
>>> : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave
>>> one's child to
>>> : >>>> take
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to
>>> : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema.
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> Best regards,
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind
>>> four years
>>> : >>>>> ago.
>>> : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to
>>> send her to a
>>> : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ
>>> : >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> : >>>>> From: "minh ha" <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
>>> : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> : >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM
>>> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise
>>> keep saying
>>> : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they
>>> need to
>>> : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how
>>> these
>>> : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates
>>> gain
>>> : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found
>>> independence skills
>>> : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend
>>> training
>>> : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision
>>> for the
>>> : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've
>>> acquired over
>>> : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember
>>> growing
>>> : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend
>>> and I
>>> : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either
>>> so we
>>> : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use
>>> a stove,
>>> : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if
>>> I want to
>>> : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows
>>> it to teach
>>> : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to
>>> essentially
>>> : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I
>>> can gain
>>> : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in
>>> college
>>> : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present
>>> myself to
>>> : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best
>>> teacher--I can
>>> : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but
>>> it's not
>>> : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience.
>>> : >>>>> Minh
>>> : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> : >>>>>> Hi all,
>>> : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion.
>>> : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand
>>> them)
>>> : >>>>>> is
>>> : >>>>> that
>>> : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction
>>> in skills
>>> : >>>>>> that
>>> : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as
>>> their
>>> : >>>>> classmates.
>>> : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that
>>> are adapted
>>> : >>>>>> for
>>> : >>>>> the
>>> : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are
>>> not always
>>> : >>>>> readily
>>> : >>>>>> available .
>>> : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills
>>> that
>>> : >>>>>> will
>>> : >>>>> help
>>> : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and
>>> succeed
>>> : >>>>>> in
>>> : >>>>> the
>>> : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills
>>> that enable
>>> : >>>>>> us
>>> : >>>>> to
>>> : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not
>>> only
>>> can
>>> : >>>>>> we
>>> : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but
>>> that this
>>> : >>>>>> should
>>> : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves.
>>> : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such
>>> learning
>>> : >>>>> environments
>>> : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that
>>> generally
>>> : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that
>>> real world
>>> : >>>>>> in
>>> : >>>>> a
>>> : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might
>>> leave you
>>> : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do.
>>> : >>>>>> Darian
>>> : >>>>>>
>>> : >>>>>>
>>> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for
>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l:
>>> : >>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gma
>>> il.com
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>> --
>>> : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in
>>> the dusty
>>> : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>> vanity:
>>> : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may
>>> act on
>>> : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
>>> Lawrence
>>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for
>>> : >>>>> nabs-l:
>>> : >>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksande
>>> fur%40gm
>>> : >>>>> ail.com
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for
>>> : >>>>> nabs-l:
>>> : >>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4
>>> 0visi.com
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for
>>> : >>>> nabs-l:
>>> : >>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40
>>> gmail.com
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>>
>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for
>>> : >>>> nabs-l:
>>> : >>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet10
>>> 4%40gmail.com
>>> : >> Hi, Misty and all,
>>> : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial
>>> for me and
>>> : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the
>>> Colorado
>>> : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of
>>> us, but
>>> : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the
>>> things
>>> : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was
>>> cleaning, and
>>> : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying,
>>> "Forget it.
>>> : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m
>>> being
>>> : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already
>>> knew I was
>>> : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and
>>> I are
>>> : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but
>>> workplaces
>>> : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so
>>> Idk why I
>>> : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook
>>> for
>>> : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my
>>> parents
>>> : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to
>>> refuse
>>> : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on.
>>> They
>>> : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl
>>> is
>>> : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind,
>>> and it's
>>> : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't
>>> possibly
>>> : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's
>>> definitely not
>>> : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person,
>>> and because
>>> : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and
>>> I'd rather
>>> : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk
>>> in and
>>> : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough."
>>> : >> Beth
>>> : >>
>>> : >> _______________________________________________
>>> : >> nabs-l mailing list
>>> : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for
>>> : >> nabs-l:
>>> : >>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet10
>>> 4%40gmail.com
>>> : >
>>> : >
>>> : > --
>>> : > Kaiti
>>> : >
>>> : > _______________________________________________
>>> : > nabs-l mailing list
>>> : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> : >
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13
>>> %40aol.com
>>> :
>>> : _______________________________________________
>>> : nabs-l mailing list
>>> : nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
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>>> nabs-l:
>>> :
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>>> et
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> n.com
>>
>>
>> --
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool;
>> he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104
>> %40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Kaiti
>
--
Kaiti
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