[nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy

Sat Nov 16 04:41:56 UTC 2013

Totally off the subject, if people are looking for a highly transferable and very inexpensive screenreader, they might have a look into system access. Contrary  to popular belief, system access works really well in a professional setting. I use it exclusively at work and find that it does better than JAWS  and many of my professional tasks. I also use the system access at home. I don't have system access installed on my work computer, but I do use the USB option.Serotek has all kinds of payment options that make system access very affordable for most people. Nothing else, you can use the free version online.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 14, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Arielle:
> I feel like I've hashed out my points enough on either side to not warrent another response regarding those facts. I do, however have some points.
> 
> First, the screenreader licenses (specifically Jaws) prohibits us from transfering licenses over to a professional system, as they would like businesses to buy licenses. This means that if you should get a job you will have one (and only one) computer you have access to, apart from your personal computer if you stay within the bounds of the license regarding the two computers you are allowed to run the software on. You are also not supposed to run the software simoltaniously. While taking your own laptop to work is also a viable solution, many corporations do not allow personal computers on to their network for a ton of reasons--the biggest being security. For example, I could not go to a software development firm and bring my laptop along generally.
> 
> Many of us are writing these emails with screen readers, but I think it's safe to say Uncle Sam has helped purchase our readers for us, which may or may not happen when you get a job, depending on where you are located.
>> On 11/14/2013 11:20 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> As usual, I believe that both extremes being advocated here are
>> incomplete explanations, and unnecessarily hostile to one another. The
>> best and most accurate position in my  view is one midway between
>> them.
>> 
>> First of all, Joe makes a good practical point about accommodations.
>> All of us are typing to this list using some kind of screen access
>> software that we presumably either own, or which comes built-in on our
>> computers if we are using Macs. Software we own is transferrable to a
>> work computer at no cost. Even if you received JAWS from rehab, I
>> believe you should still be able to run it on a work computer. At the
>> very least anybody can use JAWS in demo mode for free on a work
>> computer. This allows us to perform many computer jobs without costing
>> the employer a cent. If eventually we need to upgrade, we can then
>> decide whether to buy the upgrade out of pocket or ask the employer
>> for it as an accommodation, but by that point we should have earned
>> enough money from working at the job to be able to have options there.
>> Now if the software required for the job isn't compatible with screen
>> readers, that's a much more complicated issue, but even then there are
>> often free or low-cost work-arounds such as cleverly collaborating
>> with sighted colleagues etc. While some jobs do require
>> accommodations, many don't and many that do only  require very
>> inexpensive ones. So we shouldn't go in assuming that we are more
>> expensive to hire than our sighted competitors. I plan to request no
>> accommodations for the professor and researcher jobs I am applying for
>> should I be interviewed. If the employer wants to offer me something,
>> great, but I know all my current technology is transferrable to a new
>> job situation.
>> Of course employers might not see it that way, and  we as a group do
>> face a higher rate of discrimination than our sighted colleagues do. I
>> think what Joe is saying is that although we as a group do face
>> disadvantages on average in some fields, we aren't disadvantaged in
>> all fields and not all of us as individuals automatically experience
>> disadvantage. Those of us with good skills and good networking may
>> find ourselves in a better position for our chosen job field than
>> someone sighted who has less skills or less networking.
>> 
>> My general philosophy is to do the best I can with what I have and the
>> situation I am in. We all sometimes face circumstances beyond our
>> control that hurt us, such as the economy and negative attitudes among
>> employers. While it is appropriate to acknowledge that barriers exist,
>> it is also appropriate to identify what we can control and make the
>> most of that. I think "blaming" the economy implies more than just
>> acknowledging that it is a problem, but actually giving up power over
>> things we can control such as skill building and taking the initiative
>> to contact employers. I don't think many blind people are actually
>> giving up their power like that and I don't think we should assume
>> that because someone is unemployed it's because they are not trying
>> hard enough. However, I also don't think Joe is painting an
>> unrealistic picture. While there may be a surplus of applicants for
>> some jobs, each one of us only needs to find one job. Not all of us
>> will find jobs right away or the jobs we necessarily want the most,
>> but I think that with creativity and persistence each  one of us is
>> capable of attaining that goal.
>> 
>> I think the sarcasm and accusation I am seeing on both sides of this
>> argument are misplaced. We are here to build each other up and
>> encourage each other to do the best we can in the situations we are
>> in.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>> 
>>> On 11/14/13, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>>> Joe:
>>> 
>>> first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and
>>> opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about
>>> "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college
>>> have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on
>>> raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can
>>> afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment.
>>> 
>>> Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not
>>> justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm
>>> just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now,
>>> which keeps competition up.
>>> 
>>> Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we
>>> all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives
>>> with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world!
>>> 
>>>> On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote:
>>>> Tyler,
>>>> 
>>>> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations
>>>> if
>>>> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In
>>>> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a
>>>> blind
>>>> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses.
>>>> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses
>>>> associated with creating an accessible working environment.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living
>>>> with
>>>> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of
>>>> our
>>>> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to
>>>> job
>>>> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the
>>>> same?
>>>> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people
>>>> are
>>>> seen in a negative light for having a disability.
>>>> 
>>>> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got
>>>> the
>>>> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can
>>>> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient
>>>> card to play when no other arguments hold water.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the
>>>> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always
>>>> a
>>>> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop
>>>> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent
>>>> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether
>>>> we
>>>> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether.
>>>> 
>>>> Joe
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM
>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing
>>>> list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy
>>>> 
>>>> Joe:
>>>> Minh's point was just this:
>>>> 
>>>> There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see
>>>> college
>>>> graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are
>>>> qualified
>>>> and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp,
>>>> so
>>>> are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think
>>>> employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who
>>>> they
>>>> are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or
>>>> are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can
>>>> pay
>>>> lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they
>>>> don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means
>>>> it's
>>>> bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell
>>>> out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when
>>>> you
>>>> can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound
>>>> like
>>>> you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh
>>>> never
>>>> said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical
>>>> reasons
>>>> behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the
>>>> facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of
>>>> the
>>>> most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here.
>>>> It
>>>> may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did
>>>> nothing.
>>>>> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote:
>>>>> Tyler,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's
>>>>> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with
>>>>> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business
>>>>> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure,
>>>>> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still
>>>>> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six
>>>>> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why?
>>>>> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair
>>>>> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to
>>>>> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot
>>>>> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I
>>>>> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies
>>>>> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the
>>>>> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his
>>>>> income,
>>>> you can do it better.
>>>>> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are
>>>>> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one
>>>>> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get
>>>>> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the
>>>>> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number
>>>>> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've
>>>>> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ashley,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During
>>>>> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities
>>>>> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my
>>>>> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed
>>>> positively.
>>>>> Minh,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from.
>>>>> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we
>>>>> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to
>>>>> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes
>>>>> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class
>>>>> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not
>>>>> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire
>>>>> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right
>>>>> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need
>>>>> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or
>>>>> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes
>>>> things significantly worse for us.
>>>>> Joe
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> com
>>>> --
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Ty
>>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>>> that
>>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>> 
>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Take care,
> Ty
> http://tds-solutions.net
> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
> 
> 
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