[nabs-l] Students with guide dogs

Lucy Sirianni lucysirianni at earthlink.net
Sun Sep 1 15:20:58 UTC 2013


For me, Minh's situation points toward a broader issue: the fact 
that too often (though of course not always), Disability Services 
personnel seem to feel entitled to ask any question, no matter 
how intrusive or irrelevant, or to offer forms of assistance or 
advice the student in question has never sought and doesn't need 
or want.  They also, in my experience, too often encourage other 
individuals' and offices' tendency to approach them, the DS 
administrators, with questions or concerns rather than 
approaching us, the students.  I'm not a guide dog user so don't 
know a ton about the regulations in this area (though I agree 
with others on the list who feel that DS's questions are likely 
unnecessary -- or at least better posed by another office), but I 
do definitely feel that we, as students, need in general to be 
very clear with our DS offices about what kinds of involvement we 
do and do not consider helpful.

So Minh, if I were in your situation, I think I'd let the DS 
office know that I'd prefer to speak directly with whomever had 
approached them with questions about the dog.  Then I could work 
with that person or office to allay any concerns in whatever way 
felt appropriate given the specific situation.

Lucy

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com
>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 10:23:32 -0400
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Students with guide dogs

>It's one thing for a dog, any dog, to have a rabies tag.  That's 
responsible
>pet ownership, and it makes sense for a pet store to require such 
a thing in
>a place with a high concentration of animals in proximity.  The 
same is true
>of pet expos and kennels.  I've never encountered the requirement 
at baseball
>parks but accept this could be something common to your area.



>The key difference is carrying a tag versus providing proof of 
all vaccines
>as your previous message suggested.  Pet-friendly hotels do not 
request this
>type of information.  We should not impose stricter measures on 
ourselves
>simply because the service dog has greater access to public 
places.  By that
>logic, we may as well ask people to carry about proof of human 
vaccines
>since we're actually more at risk of contracting a disease from 
our
>interactions with people than we are from our interactions with 
canines.



>If a DSS office is requesting vaccine proof of a student for 
their service
>animal, I think it fair for the office to point to the specific 
policy
>justifying the request.  Yes, the policy would strike me as 
unnecessarily
>invasive, but it's more difficult to object to something that has 
been
>mandated by someone well above the DSS staff versus the staff 
just asking
>because they feel they need to cover themselves.  It would seem 
odd that the
>oversight would fall to DSS instead of residential services or 
some office
>where the student would have greater exposure.  In some schools 
it is not
>even required that the blind student register with DSS at all.  I 
don't
>understand your point about DSS not being able to tell other 
departments
>about their clients...



>Prove the number of people faking service dogs is growing out of 
control.
>Otherwise it just sounds like an alarmist argument.



>I did not have problem showing an ID card when asked.  That was 
the purpose
>of The Seeing Eye dispensing such evidence, but showing my card 
was by my
>own discretion and not as a result of a legal mandate.  If I'm 
wrong about
>that, by all means set me straight, but your examples of senior 
discounts,
>military discounts and student discounts fall flat because those 
discounts
>are optional.  A person seeking access to a public facility with 
a service
>animal is not.



>The idea of a card identifying legally blind people is 
mind-boggling.  That's
>what we need, another database somewhere tracking the number of 
persons with
>disabilities.



>In short, I'm all in favor of legitimate steps to show the person 
has a
>right to have their dog with them in public facilities.  I'm not 
in favor of
>unreasonable steps to excessively prove the legitimacy simply 
because I am
>blind and because there are a few people taking advantage of the 
system.
>People are not randomly pulled over to show the car they are 
driving belongs
>to them.  Outside of police stings, people are not automatically 
questioning
>drivers with handicapped placards despite handicapped fraud.  
It's one thing
>to be a society of rules and quite another to be an overly 
suspicious
>society.



>Joe



>From: Suzanne Germano [mailto:sgermano at asu.edu]
>Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 10:14 PM
>To: Joe Orozco; National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Students with guide dogs



>I am not talking about specific to guide dogs.

>1) Taking your dog to pets smart you are supposed to have proof 
of rabies
>and shots.  They don't ask but it does say it is required.

>2) Dog in the park at baseball stadiums requires every owner of a 
dog to
>have proof on them.

>3) Pet expos

>4) Dog boarding and doggy daycare
>....

>This is for all people and all dogs.

>Sorry I fail to see the big deal about providing a form to 
disabled
>student's services.

>And why disabled student services and not another department on 
campus is
>because disabled students services cannot tell any other 
department anything
>about their clients so how would they know who had a service dog.

>It is people like you with legitimate guide dogs that will start 
having tons
>of problems soon because more and more people are faking service 
dogs just
>so they can bring their pet to the store with them.  People 
aren't faking
>canes so they can bring them in stores, on planes, in restaurants 
but they
>are faking service animals.

>I have no issues with showing proof when asked.  It is just like 
if someone
>wants a benefit say senior discount, military discount, student 
discount,
>disabled line cuts if you chose to use them, I see nothing wrong 
with having
>to prove you fit that category.  There are to many dishonest 
people.  I wish I
>have a card that stated I was legally blind provided by the ADA 
or
>something.

>I had no issue showing my id card from Guide Dogs when asked.  I 
was asked on
>several occasions because I have usable vision so people thought 
he was not
>a real guide dog.

>It's just like people who have handicapped placards they give you 
an id,
>well a slip of paper, that verifies you are entitled to the 
placard and you
>have to show it if asked.



>On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Joe <jsoro620 at gmail.com> wrote:

>Suzanne,

>What places are requiring proof of vaccines for dogs? Showing 
your ID for a
>credit card transaction is done so for security purposes, not for 
the
>purposes of establishing legitimacy.  Yes, there are people who 
will try to
>abuse the system, but these are far and few between.  Having 
owned a guide
>dog for more than seven years, I would say people already face 
enough
>hurdles without adding to the burden of showing more proof than 
what the law
>requires.  If you're going to follow that logic, we may as well 
bring along
>proof that our canes are canes and not weapons since canes are 
more readily
>available than fake ID cards for service animals.

>Joe

>-----Original Message-----
>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
Suzanne Germano
>Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:35 PM
>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Students with guide dogs

>When people bring dogs to any event dogs are welcome they must 
show proof of
>vaccines and registration.  I don't feel just because a dog is a 
guide dog
>they should be exempt from proving their shots are up to date.  I 
guess for
>me it would not be a big deal and yes I had a guide dog in the 
past.

>I have a dog that cannot have a rabies shot due to a medical 
condition there
>fore I can not bring him to any event dogs are allowed that 
requires proof
>of registration this includes even things like many boarding 
places.

>Some things are worth fighting for like equal access to course 
materials but
>for me showing my dog is up to date on vaccines is not something 
I think is
>an issue to fight.

>Personally as a blind person I think people SHOULD have to prove 
their
>service animal is certified not just the two ADA questions 
because anyone
>can say their animal is a service animal and make up a need they 
have.  You
>can even buy harnesses online and id's saying your dog is a 
service dog with
>zero proof of any training or any need for a service animal.  
This is going
>to lead to future problems for those who really have proper 
service dogs.  I
>had no issue showing my ID card from Guide Dogs when asked.  To 
me it is no
>different than showing an id when I use my credit card.


>On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:07 PM, justin williams <
>justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:

>> They can't, or at least, they are not supposed too.

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of
>> Littlefield, Tyler
>> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 3:05 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Students with guide dogs

>> Exactly what point? I understand alergies, but how do you 
justify the
>> DS office requesting it? If someone has alergies, there needs to 
be
>> something said to Minh directly.  It wouldn't be to hard for her 
or
>> someone else to move across the room or something.
>> On 8/31/2013 3:02 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
>>> Justin, it's a health risk, more than you know!
>>> This is coming from someone with severe allergies to Cats, Dogs, 
and
>> horses!
>>> What if someone has said allergies, and has a reaction, when a 
dog
>sheds!
>>> Hopefully, the guide dog is groomed propperly, so that's a 
nonissue,
>>> but
>> you get the point!
>>> Blessings, Joshua
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin
>>> williams [justin.williams2 at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 1:59 PM
>>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Students with guide dogs

>>> It's not a health concern; that's ridiculous.

>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of 
Kaiti
>>> Shelton
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 12:55 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Students with guide dogs

>>> Hi,

>>> While I don't have a guide dog, I go to a private university and
>>> have seen a few other service animals on campus, guide dogs and
>otherwise.
>>> While I am not privvy to everything that goes on with other 
people
>>> and the DS office, (I'd be scared if I was), I have not heard of 
any
>>> problems and talked to a guide dog user regularly.  The only 
hitch I
>>> remember regarding the dog came up with housing and had nothing 
to
>>> do
>> with
>> the DS office.

>>> Logically, I don't see why dining services would even need this
>>> information so long as you're just eating there.  If you were
>>> working as Julie said things might be different, but if you're 
just
>>> going to get lunch/dinner and the dog is laying down, not 
sniffing
>>> other people's food or otherwise getting into it, I don't even 
see
>>> how this
>> would be a true health concern.
>>> To me it really just doesn't make a lot of sense.

>>> On 8/30/13, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi Minh,

>>>> I just graduated from a private university, where I lived on 
campus
>>>> all four years.  I never had to provide disability services with
>>>> any information.  I was in the dining hall and other food 
service
>>>> areas frequently, and no one ever had a problem.  If you were to
>>>> work in one of these places, perhaps there would be reason for
>>>> these questions, but if you only plan to eat, you don't have to 
worry.

>>>> I even stayed in the dorm for a year and never was asked for any
>>>> information on my dog.  So you can certainly tell this person 
that
>>>> not "all" universities require this information.  This isn't 
even a
>>>> reason for the information anyway.  You should also point out 
that
>>>> under the ADA, this is not a question that can be asked of you.

>>>> I was told recently that some bad information was provided to 
many
>>>> universities about the questions they can ask of students with
>>>> service dogs.  Perhaps this is a result of that.

>>>> On 8/30/13, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I never had to provide this information when I went to the
>>>>> university with my guide  dog.  I however didn't live on campus, 
so
>>>>> I don't know what the rules are.  I never was asked anything 
when I
>>>>> took her into the student union  to get meals though.

>>>>> Sent from my iPhone

>>>>> On Aug 30, 2013, at 6:07 PM, minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com> 
wrote:

>>>>>> Hello all,

>>>>>> I hope all of your semesters are off to a great start.  I just
>>>>>> moved into my dorm yesterday and am settling down with my guide
>>>>>> dog.  I have a question regarding disability services and the
>>>>>> questions they can ask about a service animal.  I received a
>>>>>> message from my DS office today inquiring whether my guide is 
all
>>>>>> up to dates on her vaccines and if she is licensed.  I wrote 
back
>>>>>> asking about the relevancy of this question because under the
>>>>>> ADA, the only two questions public places are allowed to ask are
>>>>>> "is the animal a service animal" and "what services do they
>>>>>> perfor." The dean replied that every university requires this
>>>>>> information of their students with service animals in case 
dining
>>>>>> services need this
>> information.
>>>>>>  From your knowledge, is this true? I'm just trying to figure 
out
>>>>>> what my rights are as a college student with a service animal.  
I
>>>>>> do understand there are safetyconcerns involved, however, I feel
>>>>>> as though my guide has nothing to do with the services that DS 
is
>>>>>> providing me.  Also, I attend a private institution so maybe the
>>> requirements are different.
>>>>>> Any information you can give is greatly appreciated.

>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Minh

>>>>>> --
>>>>>> "All men dream, but not equally.  Those who dream by night in 
the
>>>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it
>>>>>> was
>>> vanity:
>>>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act
>>>>>> on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T.  E.
>>>>>> Lawrence

>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 0g
>>>>>> m
>>>>>> ail.com
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>>>> --
>>>> Julie McG
>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member,  National
>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding 
Eyes
>>>> for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he
>>>> gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not
>>>> perish but may have eternal life."
>>>> John 3:16

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>>>> 40gmail.com


>>> --
>>> Kaiti

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>> --
>> Take care,
>> Ty
>> http://tds-solutions.net
>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a 
fool;
>> he that dares not reason is a slave.
>> Sent from my Toaster (tm).


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