[nabs-l] Students with guide dogs

Tue Sep 3 12:54:18 UTC 2013

Thanks for all the info!

On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 4:31 AM, Jewel <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> A  service dog is legally defined as a  dog who is trained to perform
> tasks that mitigate one's disability. So, if a  person with epilepsy
> owner-trains a  dog to nudge him with his nose when a seizure is
> upcoming, that is a service dog. Whether that dog is accepted into
> places of businesses depends on if the dog is clean and well-behaved.
> A  service dog who barks at any other dog that comes by, relieves in a
> business, or does other naughty things will have the owner soon
> learning his dog cannot come with him everywhere. However, if the dog
> is well-behaved, it only needs to be trained for one task to be
> considered a service animal. The dog does not even need to be on a
> leash or have any identification harness or sign. If the dog is
> controlled  and the person's disability requires that the dog be free
> from a leash, then that is fine. For example, a dog who is trained to
> run for help when his owner goes into a grand mal seizure cannot be
> tied down by a leash; it won't be able to run for help. This dog would
> be controlled by voice instead.
>
> Though it is more common for  service dogs for people with other
> disabilities to be owner-trained, blind people have trained their own
> guide dogs. Mostly this is people who have worked with many guide dogs
> and know exactly what the dog should do and what they want him to do.
>
> If you want more info on owner training a guide dog, check out the
> NAGDU list. There are several owner trainers on there, including
> someone who just got a  puppy and is giving him basic training before
> he goes to a  private trainer for guide training.
>
> ~Jewel
>
> On 9/3/13, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
> > You can give a dog training and call it a service dog. They're called
> > owner-trained dogs.
> >
> > Basically here's my thoughts on this.
> > Whether or not it is legally required, if Minh wants to provide the info
> > she should go for it. If it were a request from say, dining or housing,
> > I'd have told her 100% yes, do it. As it stands, it's an issue with an
> > already lacking DS office who wants the information "just in case."
> > Whatever yor views are on whether or not we should have tracker chips
> > and IDS to say we're blind and ids to say we should have a cane and ids
> > to say we have a qualified service dog (whatever qualified means at this
> > point), forking over information just because is a little crazy. I also
> > think this helps foster the sort of attitude where departments
> > communicate with the DS office as opposed to the student herself.
> > On 9/3/2013 1:03 AM, Ashley Bramlett wrote:
> >> Suzanne,
> >> I see you're not going to win the argument with Joe.
> >> I see where you're coming from, but if the law says they cannot ask
> >> intrusive questions, then the school shouldn't.
> >>
> >> As for training, you are oversimplifying. The dog has to meet some
> >> requirements and I think trainers from the guide dog school come to
> >> your home to provide some of this training.
> >> You cannot simply give a dog some training and call it a service dog.
> >> Ashley
> >>
> >> -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano
> >> Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 12:52 AM
> >> To: tyler at tysdomain.com ; National Association of Blind Students
> >> mailing list
> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Students with guide dogs
> >>
> >> I did not know anyone can just train their own dog and call it a service
> >> dog.
> >>
> >> So I can train my dog to stop at curbs and other things that my dog from
> >> Guide Dog for the Blind dog did and I can then have him legally be a
> >> service dog?
> >>
> >> Never knew this.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Littlefield, Tyler
> >> <tyler at tysdomain.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> You keep pushing this verification of service dogs like it's a
> >>> solution to
> >>> the fake service dogs issue. It might be one solution or maybe a
> partial
> >>> solution, but what do you propose for owner-trained dogs? Those dogs,
> >>> who
> >>> by your account of what should be allowed and what shouldn't wouldn't
> be
> >>> "properly trained" and certified?
> >>> On 9/2/2013 10:00 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> What does well behaved dogs have to do with properly certified service
> >>>> animals. I should not be able to take my German Shepherd into a
> >>>> store just
> >>>> because he is well behaved and I am blind if he is not trained to be a
> >>>> guide dog. I would love to bring my dogs everywhere but they are not
> >>>> trained as guide dogs. I believe that service dogs should have to be
> >>>> properly trained and certified by an agency otherwise everyone will
> >>>> just
> >>>> bring pets into stores and claim they are service dogs.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have seen several dogs in stores recently with nothing on them
> >>>> indicating
> >>>> they are service animals but becausee they are small no one says
> >>>> anything.
> >>>> I bet if I brought my shepherd into costco someone would say something
> >>>> about it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mon, Sep 2, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Julie McGinnity <kaybaycar at gmail.com
> >>>> >wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>  Hi all,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> First of all, though the issue of fake service dogs complicates
> >>>>> things, it is not helpful to treat the guide dog school ID as an
> >>>>> access card that will prove the legitimacy of our dogs.  I know
> plenty
> >>>>> of owner trainers who have very well-behaved dogs.  They would not be
> >>>>> able to prove that they got their guides from a school.  So then,
> what
> >>>>> would happen?  They would be kicked out of establishments or forced
> to
> >>>>> make their own IDs.  What would this accomplish?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for showing documentation to housing, dorms and other on campus
> >>>>> housing are covered under the FHA(fair Housing Act).  Under FHA, it
> is
> >>>>> illegal for a housing association of any kind to ask for health
> >>>>> records on service dogs.  We could debate all day about whether or
> not
> >>>>> this is a good idea.  Frankly, I can see both sides of it, at least
> >>>>> for dorms.  But it doesn't matter because it is actually illegal.  So
> >>>>> are pet deposits, size requirements, and of course, refusal of the
> >>>>> service dog for any reason.  This covers public housing accomidations
> >>>>> and depends on numbers.  Anyone renting a certain number of rooms,
> >>>>> apartment complexes, and dorms are covered.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would also point out that it is the handeler's choice where to take
> >>>>> a guide dog.  Noone can or should decide that for anyone else.  I,
> for
> >>>>> example, will always take my current dog to convention, but I
> >>>>> understand and respect those who choose not to do this.  It is also
> >>>>> not up to anyone but the handeler to decide when to use the dog.  We
> >>>>> guide dog users get a lot of opinions from others about when, how,
> and
> >>>>> what to do with our dogs.  Yes, some of them are well-meaning, but
> >>>>> much of the time they are uncalled for.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I do agree that some guide dog users make a bad name for the rest of
> >>>>> us.  But at the same time, every guide dog user makes a mistake.  I
> >>>>> have had moments where I dropped the leash for a second, and my dog
> >>>>> ran after another dog.  I got yelled at and deserved it.  We are only
> >>>>> human and make mistakes and get distracted.  Remember that the next
> >>>>> time you see a dog relieve itself in the hotel at convention.  My dog
> >>>>> has never done this, but she has done other embarrassing things at
> >>>>> convention.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think we need to give each other a little grace here. It's time for
> >>>>> the cane users to support the dog users and their rights to take
> >>>>> charge over their own dogs.  (This goes for other dog users too.)
>  And
> >>>>> it's also time for the dog users to stop worrying about the dog
> verses
> >>>>> cane debate and use their dogs and canes when and how they want.
>  Yes,
> >>>>> dog users still have to use canes some of the time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My last point I would like to make is that it is within the law for
> >>>>> the owner of an establishment to refuse access to a dog who is dirty
> >>>>> or otherwise disruptive to business. This is what a lot of people
> tend
> >>>>> to forgot about the ADA.  So if a dog is not groomed and is not
> clean,
> >>>>> the handeler will have other problems besides bothering people with
> >>>>> allergies.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9/1/13, Robin <robin-melvin at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I presume it is a health question because as I
> >>>>>> recall the initial EMAIL post to this list was
> >>>>>> wondering whether or not it is permissible under
> >>>>>> the ADA guidelines for a college or university to
> >>>>>> request  vaccination records of a service/guide dog.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I presume it is NOT an ADA guideline issue. I
> >>>>>> don't SEE the difference between requesting a
> >>>>>> service/guide dog's vaccination records or a
> >>>>>> students immunization records  especially with
> >>>>>> all of the concern of contageous diseases  such
> >>>>>> as the flu. They are, in my humble opinion, just
> >>>>>> trying to be proactive to protect the
> >>>>>> staff/student population, who regularly
> >>>>>> attend/visit their campus of learning, and that
> >>>>>> is what, in my EYES makes it a health concern/issue.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sent From Robin M.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> At 12:46 PM 8/31/2013, you wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> BS"D I only want to point out some things. It is
> >>>>>>> not the dog's coat which gives the allergic
> >>>>>>> reaction, it is the dog's saliva. The saliva
> >>>>>>> consists of allergen which make some people
> >>>>>>> sick. Actually, every dog owner carry allergen
> >>>>>>> and therefore the dog is not the only problem
> >>>>>>> for people with dog allergies. A dog who is well
> >>>>>>> cared of, bathed and gromed do not cause more
> >>>>>>> problems for a person with dog allergies then a
> >>>>>>> dog owner in general does. Many persons with dog
> >>>>>>> allergies can take medecins but for few people
> >>>>>>> this do not work, for them it would be a problem
> >>>>>>> to only meet a dog owner. I do not hope none
> >>>>>>> take this personally but I only want to clear up
> >>>>>>> things. I live in a country where the Allergic
> >>>>>>> lobby has a very strong voice which makes it
> >>>>>>> hard to live with a guide dog here. We get
> >>>>>>> refused to enter shops, restaurants and
> >>>>>>> universities because 'a person can get an
> >>>>>>> allergic attack'. Okay, therefore this subject
> >>>>>>> is close to my heart. I understand that it can
> >>>>>>> be a problem for people with allergies but it is
> >>>>>>> not my problem, my dog is well taken care of and
> >>>>>>> she will not be upin  people faces. I really
> >>>>>>> feel for Joshua and others, it must be difficult
> >>>>>>> but I wish it would be more respectful
> >>>>>>> especially in my own country where it sounds
> >>>>>>> lile my dog would kill people with dog allergies
> >>>>>>> which is not true. Kind regards, Mlle.
> >>>>>>> Leye-Shprintse Ãberg Courriel :
> >>>>>>> leyeshprintse at ymail.com Journal :
> >>>>>>> http://leyeshprintse.blogspot.**com<
> http://leyeshprintse.blogspot.com>EnvoyÃ©
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> de mon
> >>>>>>> iPad Mini
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Julie McG
> >>>>> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National
> >>>>> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
> >>>>> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President,
> >>>>> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008
> >>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> >>>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> >>>>> life."
> >>>>> John 3:16
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Take care,
> >>> Ty
> >>> http://tds-solutions.net
> >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
> >>> that dares not reason is a slave.
> >>>
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> >
> > --
> > Take care,
> > Ty
> > http://tds-solutions.net
> > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
> that
> > dares not reason is a slave.
> >
> >
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