[nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism
Ashley Bramlett
bookwormahb at earthlink.net
Fri Apr 4 04:17:02 UTC 2014
Kaiti,
Thanks for your thoughts. Your observations and rumors about ACB conventions
are true. It seems they have a more entitlement mentality.
Also, yes, they think they need more sighted people and adaptations. Yes,
they have sighted people at conventions for assistance. They also have
advocated for audible traffic signals before their convention is held. I
know here in virginia, they even wanted the floor to be modified for low
vision travelers who did not use a cane. They had tape put down on the front
of steps so people could see the contrasting colors.
I also know some blind people who won't join either organization for the
reasons you mentioned. I suppose I sort of stay with NFB because overall I
like the advocacy we do and think we get more done; for instance, I applaud
the teach act and the advocacy with home appliances and websites.
I'm glad you got a lot out of the Federation philosophy. It does help as a
message of encouragement.
Ashley
-----Original Message-----
From: Kaiti Shelton
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2014 12:02 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism
Hi all,
Ryan, Arielle, Ashley, and any others who I have failed to mention,
great posts!
I do want to say something on the NFB ACB issue. I refrained from
doing it on the thread which was shut down a few days ago, since I
didn't really want to enter the organization bashing fray by just
sharing a story, but we're all pretty intellegent people on this
thread, so here it is. I'd love to hear what you all think.
I really do what I can for my state affiliate, and think that the
people from Ohio are some of the coolest federationists because they
have a good balance of encouraging members of the affiliate to reach
their full potential as people, and logically and politely working
with our legislators to make reasonable changes happen. There aren't
any crazy lawsuits that we're particularly involved with, and the main
goal of our affiliate is just to grow and serve as a resource. As a
division president, I've gotten to know the current leadership and
some past presidents here, as well as a lot of the general members.
I've always felt welcomed and encouraged, even when things I tried to
do didn't go as well as expected. I owe a lot to the NFB for helping
me grow as well.
However, I do know that every organization has its flaws, and being a
more liberal person I see the hard and fast conservativism to be a
little troubling at times. Not all the time, but as I've said before,
I would have for minority groups to be formed in the organization,
because we first need to have all members equal before we ask everyone
in the organization to work for equality in the greater society. But,
the NFB's realistic attitude about the capabilities of blind people is
mostly on.
I know a blind woman who acted as a mentor for me and my mom for
years. One day when I was 14 or so I asked her what she thought about
the blindness organizations out there. She said she was not a member
of either the NFB or ACB, not because she was a fence sitter, but
because she didn't want to belong to either of them. Her view of the
NFB was not at all related to militaristic advocacy people, but that
the organization seems to shut out sighted people a little too much,
in her opinion. But, on the other hand, the ACB seemed to rely too
much on the mentality of, "I'm blind, so I'm owed this, and that."
So, NFB was overly sufficient to the point, but the ACB was overly
needy.
I have heard some similar comments about the ACB over the years, like
that they make sure there are sighted people at their conventions
specifically to act as sighted guides for people. I've also heard
from my state affiliate's secretary that once when she went to a state
ACB convention, it would be announced that, "The other camp is among
us," whenever she and the NFB people she was with entered a room.
That's just a bit weird to me. I know the NFB and ACB don't
particularly get along, and I don't support them failing the
resolution posed to support the Fair Wages for Workers With
Disabilities act at all because I have that on recording somewhere,
but really, it sounds like they're 12 and saying the kids from the
other side of the block are busting in on their Little Rascals-style
meeting. I know federationists who also belong to ACB, and I also
know that some of these people are openly in both groups, but I've
never heard them criticized for it as long as they still contribute to
our cause. I've also heard that some people who were in both groups
eventually chose to leave ACB, because the needy attitude became less
and less a thing they agreed with.
Just a story based on what I've heard from others I know.
On 4/3/14, Arielle Silverman <arielle71 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Ryan,
>
> You make some interesting points in your message below. I think many
> of the issues you raise are a matter of degree rather than kind.
> Denying a blind person access to a good or service is clearly
> discriminatory and problematic. Making a website inaccessible is less
> blatantly discriminatory because the blind person can often find a
> workaround, such as brief help from a sighted person, to access the
> content. However, there are several laws on the books that require
> public materials to be accessible. In the eyes of the law this is a
> civil rights issue. I think much of what NFB does is to push entities
> to comply with existing laws, as much as or more than changing laws to
> expand our civil rights.
> I am often told that NFB staff tries to work collaboratively with
> companies, as you suggest, and moves to legal action only if the
> companies refuse to work with us. NFB has partnered with a lot of
> companies and runs a lot of Braille and technology initiatives to try
> to make things more accessible. This stuff is important but not as
> prominently featured in the presidential reports etc. So I don't think
> NFB is as confrontational as it sometimes appears to be. However, I
> agree that sometimes the presidential reports and other publicity has
> an "us vs. them" tone that is not really necessary and I think
> alienates some intelligent people both inside and outside the
> organization. I suspect this is another relic of the past when the
> issues facing the blind were perhaps more urgently pressing and the
> relations between NFB and many other groups were antagonistic. I
> think we are moving into an era where we need to be more sensitive to
> all the nuances and shades of gray between "us" and "them" and I hope
> that future leadership can understand this. Blind people are a small
> minority and our requests to have the environment made accessible to
> us are often ignored. While I think we should continue to demand equal
> treatment, I also think that often the folks ignoring our requests are
> not doing this because they dislike us (as the president sometimes
> implies in his reports), but simply because we are a minority and they
> feel they have more important issues to attend to. So I agree that
> villainizing entities that won't work with us is not helpful. But at
> the same time, if organizations really do ignore us after repeated
> attempts for dialogue, there are times when the issue is pressing
> enough to justify a lawsuit.
>
> Arielle
>
> On 4/3/14, Ryan Silveira <ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> While I agree that some of the philosophies of the NFB (e.g. blindfold
>> training, maintaining braille literacy and the "empowering yourself"
>> approach) are, indeed, conservative ideas and approaches, the civil
>> rights
>> portion of the NFB takes a very liberal and rather belligerent approach.
>> I
>> do not say that all of the members of the NFB think and act this way, but
>> there is a group of members (I have heard it called the "advocacy arm")
>> who
>> seem to enjoy banding together and fighting the rest of the world for
>> what
>> they consider to be their rights. I am often told, "That is an
>> outsider's
>> perspective of our organization. We're not really like that." To that,
>> I
>> say: the "outsiders" had to gain that perspective somehow. They did not
>> just make it up. While I am proud to be a member of the NFB, I see no
>> need
>> to advertise my pride in the organization, nor to form some kind of army
>> for
>> the blind and either virtually or realistically march for our rights.
>> The
>> group within the organization which takes this liberal approach seem, to
>> me,
>> to purposefully find the most trivial things with which they see a
>> problem
>> and then shout about how we are not equal and how the government or a
>> school
>> needs to change for us, but that there is no reason whatsoever for us to
>> try
>> to work with them. If a website is inaccessible or a certain program
>> does
>> not work the way you want it to work, shouting about civil rights is not
>> the
>> answer--working with the developers to make the website or program
>> accessible
>> is. The only reason one should fight the civil rights battle is if they
>> are
>> truly being denied a human right. examples of situations in which a
>> civil
>> rights battle might be appropriate are: if a person is not admitted into
>> a
>> school because they are blind or not admitted into a restaurant they
>> really
>> wanted to go to because they had a service dog. Even then, publicizing
>> the
>> discrimination and suing the organization is a last resort. There was a
>> speech given by Dr. Mauer recently (I believe some time in the last year)
>> during which he enumerated the legal civil rights victories various blind
>> students have had. While listening to this speech, I felt as if we were
>> fighting some kind of war--the blind minority against the sighted
>> majority.
>> This is not a war, fellow students. We are not fighting. Those who
>> continuously cry for equality simply want to be greater than those whom
>> they
>> feel oppress them. Equality is gained when both sides meet in the middle
>> and come up with a solution. It cannot, it will not be established if
>> one
>> side continuously fights the other, for eventually one side will emerge
>> victorious and the other will be defeated. Rather than taking the
>> liberal
>> approach, we, the minority, should learn to work with the sighted
>> majority.
>> If we want them to work for us, making things more accessible, then we
>> need
>> to be able to work with them and to make compromises. Only then will we
>> have equality.
>>
>>
>> Ryan L. Silveira
>> Corresponding Secretary
>> Ohio Association of Blind Students
>> A Division of the National Federation of the Blind, "Changing What it
>> Means
>> to be Blind"
>> (203) 731-7580
>> ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com
>>
>> On Apr 3, 2014, at 1:24 AM, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you Ashley.
>>> Lora
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:58 PM, "Ashley Bramlett"
>>>> <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Melissa,
>>>> I agree and I hope the shift is toward educating companies to make
>>>> their
>>>> software accessible and doing outreach so they know our capabilities.
>>>> We need to focus more on employment, definitely. Due to the
>>>> inaccessible
>>>> software on pcs, electronics going touch screen and employer
>>>> attitudes,
>>>> we are not increasing our employment rate.
>>>> It used to be you could be a receptionist or admin assistant or
>>>> secretary
>>>> as a blind person, good entry level job. This was in the 90s when we
>>>> had
>>>> pcs, but no digital touch screens. Okay, now, you have inaccessible
>>>> equipment; scanners, copiers, and printers have screens one has to read
>>>> to operate them beyond the basics. Even phones now have menus we cannot
>>>> read. We can operate them and make calls, sure, but to go change
>>>> settings, we cannot do that.
>>>> Digital things has caused inaccessibility. And, jobs blind people used
>>>> to
>>>> have are disappearing. Such jobs include secretaries, switch board
>>>> operators, and receptionists. Dark room technicians, piano tuners, and
>>>> chair caning are disappearing too.
>>>>
>>>> I think without more of a move to have accessible software, we are
>>>> going
>>>> to be left behind.
>>>> Every job ad tells me I need skills in database management. How can we
>>>> compete with inaccessible databases? Not even MS Access is accessible!
>>>>
>>>> As to conservatism, indeed it's a conservative group. I knew this the
>>>> second meeting I went to 15 years back. Much of the self empowerment
>>>> message spoken about at the virginia state convention is conservative.
>>>> Yes, it is like yeah everyone can be successful in whatever they want.
>>>> If
>>>> you cannot get your dreams, you need to have more skills or more
>>>> confidence; just as conservatives like rush Limboull say get up and out
>>>> there, the NFB says if you cannot succeed its your fault. As Joe
>>>> pointed
>>>> out, I no longer can follow this. I have skills and a college degree,
>>>> yet
>>>> I cannot possibly meet all job qualifications because of visual
>>>> barriers.
>>>> Another example is many communications jobs I want require adobe
>>>> creative
>>>> suite use. I cannot use adobe photoshop or adobe end design. Never will
>>>> happen, even if I improve my computer skills; some things just cannot
>>>> be
>>>> done with a screen reader. I could use other text based databases if
>>>> they
>>>> were accessible though; such as raisers edge, donor perfect, CRM, and
>>>> SalesForce.
>>>>
>>>> I do like the can do attitude of NFB leaders, but out in the real
>>>> world,
>>>> having the blindness skills simply is no longer enough to suceed.
>>>>
>>>> Ashley
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: melissa R Green
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:45 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism
>>>>
>>>> I like the dual aproach as well. I have stated this before, and I
>>>> don't
>>>> have a concrete answer. I think that we need to also continue to focus
>>>> on
>>>> the employment of blind people more than we have done. I was very glad
>>>> that
>>>> the job fair was occurring at convention again, and that there was a
>>>> job
>>>> fair at washington seminar. In my opinion, this is a more balanced
>>>> aproach
>>>> to assisting blind people in becoming successful. Have a blessed day.
>>>> Best Wishes
>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman"
>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 3:12 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] NFB and conservatism/liberalism
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I had not thought much about the political tone of NFB philosophy
>>>> itself. While there is definitely a conservative "pull yourself up"
>>>> mentality especially in older NFB discourse, the NFB has also
>>>> historically fought to expand government assistance for the blind
>>>> including social security. Most would contend that is a more liberal
>>>> position. Also, in the eleven years I've been an NFB member, I've
>>>> picked up on an increasing shift toward universal design and
>>>> pressuring others to make environments accessible to the blind in
>>>> addition to encouraging blind people to adapt to their environments.
>>>> In fact I think most of the Washington Seminar priorities in recent
>>>> years have had something to do with making things accessible. I think
>>>> the NFB is starting to recognize that integration comes from a dual
>>>> approach of empowering blind people while also making environments
>>>> more hospitable for us.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I don't think saying the NFB expects blind people to rely on
>>>> themselves without anybody's help is quite accurate. If you read the
>>>> old Kernel stories and banquet speeches, Federation leaders often
>>>> stress how much other NFB members helped them get to where they are
>>>> today. One might argue that the NFB tends to minimize outsider
>>>> (sighted) help, but I think there is a great emphasis on reaching out
>>>> to other blind people for help.
>>>>
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/2/14, justin williams <justin.williams2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The boot strap theory is one I had not heard of in reference to the
>>>>> nfb.
>>>>> Great point Ashley.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
>>>>> Bramlett
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 1:38 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>>>
>>>>> Kaiti,
>>>>> The NFB is overall conservative. It is manefisted in state conventions
>>>>> too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Christianity is the dominant religion and therefore gets recognition.
>>>>> I hear conservative positions all the time. Its rooted in the
>>>>> philosophy
>>>>> too. The idea that we have to get out there and integrate into society
>>>>> on
>>>>> terms of equality and make a lot of money to support the organization
>>>>> is
>>>>> kind of conservative. I hear a lot about jobs. Don't rely on
>>>>> government;
>>>>> get
>>>>> a job.
>>>>> Well, while I do support self sufficiency, I do also recognize that
>>>>> you
>>>>> can
>>>>> be financially independent through other means with out the job.
>>>>> What about stay at home moms? What about those with family
>>>>> inherritances
>>>>> who
>>>>> don't need to work? What about those with medical issues which
>>>>> precludes
>>>>> a
>>>>> full work day? Well, its not so easy to get a job and frankly, Nfb is
>>>>> doing
>>>>> nothing to address the software inaccessibility of common databases
>>>>> like
>>>>> raisers edge.
>>>>> The philosophy is like the idea of pulling yourself up by your
>>>>> bootstraps
>>>>> with no outside help.
>>>>> So, if you have not realized this, the organization is conservative
>>>>> and
>>>>> ACB
>>>>> is more liberal. This does not bother me much as I was raised with
>>>>> these
>>>>> values, but as more young people come into NFB, it may bother them.
>>>>> Things
>>>>> may change soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is sad about the LGBT social group being quashed.
>>>>> I am not one for gay marriage, but see no harm in a social group. hope
>>>>> this
>>>>> does not happen again.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I agree with posts that say we need to work more with other
>>>>> disability groups.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Kaiti Shelton
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 10:30 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>>>>> peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind, (we
>>>>> may
>>>>> call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation), and
>>>>> those
>>>>> with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities without
>>>>> blindness, I think organizational relationships are the starting point
>>>>> to
>>>>> working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a huge group of blind
>>>>> people,
>>>>> and is often used as a catalyst for working interpersonally to
>>>>> accomplish
>>>>> tasks, other groups are the same. If we want to work interpersonally
>>>>> with
>>>>> the deaf, persay, then we need to go where the deaf are and start
>>>>> forming
>>>>> relationships with that group. Once repore is established, people
>>>>> from
>>>>> the
>>>>> various organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have
>>>>> phrased
>>>>> it better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree described,
>>>>> but
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as Arielle
>>>>> pointed
>>>>> out, there are some pretty out there groups like the car one. I mean,
>>>>> it's
>>>>> okay for people to get together and discuss cars that we can't even
>>>>> drive
>>>>> (yet at least), so their discussion is purely based on mechanical and
>>>>> aesthetic knowledge of the cars rather than a personal user
>>>>> experience,
>>>>> but
>>>>> a support group for blind people who are seen as a minority for
>>>>> another
>>>>> reason is not okay? To me, that just doesn't make sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>>>>> unitarian
>>>>> even though I was raised catholic if I had to label myself at all, so
>>>>> I
>>>>> realize my personal views on things of that nature are more liberal
>>>>> than
>>>>> the
>>>>> views of others. However, conservatives aren't always going to be
>>>>> happy,
>>>>> just as liberals aren't, and it is important that we compromise. I
>>>>> was
>>>>> not
>>>>> under the impression that the NFB had any religious affiliation, and
>>>>> even
>>>>> remember asking someone what Invocation was, because I really didn't
>>>>> know
>>>>> the term. Even in this light, why is Christianity made such a
>>>>> prevalent
>>>>> part of convention?
>>>>> What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I
>>>>> would
>>>>> hate
>>>>> for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double minority members,
>>>>> because after all, we're all minorities in the greater world, so to
>>>>> pretend
>>>>> that those who are different from us are less valuable or don't
>>>>> deserve
>>>>> the
>>>>> right to organize a group to suit their unique set of needs or
>>>>> circumstances
>>>>> doesn't seem right.
>>>>> Sorry for the rant.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will never
>>>>>> happen again.
>>>>>> Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and then
>>>>>> they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO the
>>>>>> devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight and
>>>>>> be the darling of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with
>>>>>> chapters and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and wondering
>>>>>> what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give
>>>>>> examples of backing the wrong person.
>>>>>> Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and
>>>>>> grew
>>>>>> up in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the
>>>>>> darling
>>>>>> of the federation. Have a blessed day.
>>>>>> Best Wishes
>>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>>>>>> withmultipledisabilities?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able to
>>>>>> announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially the
>>>>>> symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>>>>>> like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I completely
>>>>>> understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for every
>>>>>> special interest. However, we need clearer and more evenhanded
>>>>>> criteria about what should constitute a division. It doesn't make
>>>>>> sense to allow a division for car enthusiasts with its own annual
>>>>>> activities and then not even allow an LGBT group to advertise
>>>>>> informal
>>>>>> meet-ups. We can't try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too
>>>>>> politically controversial and then have religious invocations at all
>>>>>> the general sessions. Has the general membership ever even been
>>>>>> polled
>>>>>> about whether to keep having these religious invocations? In other
>>>>>> words, unless we want to be in an organization that reflects the
>>>>>> president's or the board's interests and political views alone, we
>>>>>> really need to have some transparency about how divisions are formed
>>>>>> and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>>>>>> forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>>>>>> group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the hassle
>>>>>> associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>>>>>> folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>>>>>> group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list. But
>>>>>>> the devision never came into being. I think that the committee of
>>>>>>> the under served is supposed to address these issues. However this
>>>>>>> is not occurring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>>>>>>> diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become more
>>>>>>> diverse. I also
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that if
>>>>>>> they have
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do anything
>>>>>>> to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came
>>>>>>> together and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and
>>>>>>> transgendered people.
>>>>>>> I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
>>>>>>> announcement and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people left
>>>>>>> the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and that
>>>>>>> the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for
>>>>>>> social purposes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many more
>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and see
>>>>>>> what happens.
>>>>>>> Have a blessed day.
>>>>>>> Best Wishes
>>>>>>> Melissa R. Green and Pj
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>>>>>>> multipledisabilities?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>>>>>>> that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>>>>>>> today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number
>>>>>>> of blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase,
>>>>>>> and more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>>>>>>> disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>>>>>>> likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>>>>>>> centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that people
>>>>>>> with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>>>>>>> organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>>>>>>> contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true
>>>>>>> when we think about including people with intellectual disabilities
>>>>>>> and mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>>>>>>> general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be highly
>>>>>>> educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>>>>>>> disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can feel
>>>>>>> left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>>>>>>> leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>>>>>>> illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>>>>>>> passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>>>>>>> Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>>>>>>> disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>>>>>>> employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able to
>>>>>>> help them with.
>>>>>>> I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>>>>>>> blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more divisions
>>>>>>> and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is a
>>>>>>> deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>> effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>>>>>>> blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind
>>>>>>> wheelchair users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss
>>>>>>> with each other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been
>>>>>>> formed. I would love to see a division for blind people with mental
>>>>>>> health conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and
>>>>>>> there are probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such
>>>>>>> divisions don't exist because the national leadership opposes them
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> if there just hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them
>>>>>>> going. But I think having such divisions could help folks who have
>>>>>>> additional disabilities obtain leadership positions within the
>>>>>>> organization, and also to provide a vehicle for collective action
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> education about issues affecting these groups specifically, even if
>>>>>>> the NFB as a whole should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes
>>>>>>> sense. I would be interested in other suggestions from you about how
>>>>>>> members with multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there
>>>>>>> is something to be said for going ahead and running for leadership
>>>>>>> positions in order to change things, change also needs to come from
>>>>>>> the organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are
>>>>>>> going to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joe and others,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
>>>>>>>> negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be perfect. Still, some of what one person may seem as wrong
>>>>>>>> isn't
>>>>>>>> so much a matter of right or wrong as perspective and opinion. We
>>>>>>>> embarked a good while back now on an expansion that has resulted in
>>>>>>>> the need to raise more funds than we used to have to raise. I do
>>>>>>>> not think I am alone among NFB supporters in recognizing that this
>>>>>>>> is a risk. When you look at our budget and that of the ACB and
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> compare legislative successes as you did, Joe, it is certainly
>>>>>>>> clear
>>>>>>>> that legislative successes are not proportional to one's budget.
>>>>>>>> Whether I completely agree with legislation ACB passes or not, I
>>>>>>>> recognize that the ACB has made contributions. However, I have
>>>>>>>> felt
>>>>>>>> for some time and I feel particularly more so now that our problems
>>>>>>>> can't be solved by legislation alone. Let's take accessibility,
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> example. There is a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation
>>>>>>>> passed that will force software to be accessible, for example. I
>>>>>>>> happen to believe this is necessary, but it isn't going to make
>>>>>>>> everything better for us, particularly on the job, all by itself.
>>>>>>>> If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> limits of current technology and explore ways of getting
>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>> that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able to
>>>>>>>> drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> at some point. However, I got very excited about the fact that as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> result of looking at the problem, we experimented with a number of
>>>>>>>> ways of getting information that had not been explored before. A
>>>>>>>> significant portion of our budget went into the KNFB reader. At
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> time, it was something nobody was doing, and it was a moving
>>>>>>>> experience when I held up a KNFB reader to the lists of registered
>>>>>>>> people at a national convention that were just hanging from a
>>>>>>>> crossbar and have it start to read the content. There have
>>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>> been over a thousand kids who have attended science camps of one
>>>>>>>> kind or another through our efforts. We have been able to sponsor
>>>>>>>> other gatherings as well for blind lawyers, teachers, and major
>>>>>>>> players in the technology field. We couldn't have done any of this
>>>>>>>> in the 80's or 90's, and much of this would not have been done even
>>>>>>>> now if we hadn't tried it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all this.
>>>>>>>> My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives. We
>>>>>>>> won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
>>>>>>>> difference. Frankly, I am a believer that one learns almost as
>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>> from what doesn't work as one learns from what does, because if you
>>>>>>>> make a mistake you can eliminate or refine that approach. Will
>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>> of those thousand kids get into math or science because of what we
>>>>>>>> did? Is the OCR in the new HIMS product a little better because of
>>>>>>>> what we did with the KNFB reader? Will we see a really good reader
>>>>>>>> on the iPhone? Might we ever see a reader that could use
>>>>>>>> artificial
>>>>>>>> intelligence to interpret software on a computer screen instead of
>>>>>>>> having
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> educate every person who writes
>>>>>>>> software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a way
>>>>>>>> for us
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> control the Google self-driving cars because of some of the work we
>>>>>>>> did on our own car? I hope that at least some of the answers are
>>>>>>>> yes, but at this point I can't really say. What I do know is that
>>>>>>>> the smaller dynamic grass roots organization that we were in the
>>>>>>>> 80's couldn't have had any affect on some of what I've listed
>>>>>>>> above,
>>>>>>>> nor was it the right time for that. But it also means that we
>>>>>>>> change. Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> change. Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the
>>>>>>>> challenges of change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be
>>>>>>>> that way, though. We can and must learn how to do better, as
>>>>>>>> individuals and as an organization.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
>>>>>>>> centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing does
>>>>>>>> sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions
>>>>>>>> about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and
>>>>>>>> exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as
>>>>>>>> a blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND
>>>>>>>> Incorporated here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers.
>>>>>>>> Some of the point of such training is to encourage the idea that
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> have to have a set of tools to approach a given situation and not
>>>>>>>> just one tool. Still, we have to do more than run people through
>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>> This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>>>>>>>> Legislating that software must be accessible and that one cannot
>>>>>>>> discriminate based upon a disability was and is still needed, but
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> won't matter much if we don't have training. Legislation and even
>>>>>>>> training won't matter all that much if we don't get a good basic
>>>>>>>> education.
>>>>>>>> Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that
>>>>>>>> problem
>>>>>>>> if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't
>>>>>>>> pick
>>>>>>>> any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to
>>>>>>>> impact
>>>>>>>> the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
>>>>>>>> However, it is more important than ever that we understand where we
>>>>>>>> are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what can
>>>>>>>> we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
>>>>>>>> anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization.
>>>>>>>> With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of
>>>>>>>> asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set
>>>>>>>> us
>>>>>>>> apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching out
>>>>>>>> is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need the
>>>>>>>> help of all members, though, to handle change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Arielle,
>>>>>>>>> That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>> I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
>>>>>>>>> furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I
>>>>>>>> deeply respect the organization's history and truly appreciate the
>>>>>>>> raw potential the organization has moving forward, the passion I
>>>>>>>> joined with back in high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I
>>>>>>>> don't think this perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB
>>>>>>>> desperately needs members who can see past the smoke and mirrors of
>>>>>>>> PR, and who are willing to discuss issues of blindness and politics
>>>>>>>> in a no-nonsense way that isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame
>>>>>>>> though when those of us less willing to toe the line and pander to
>>>>>>>> those with political power are treated with hostility by some at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> national level, and more still within our local chapters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>>>> <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
>>>>>>>>>> saying about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also
>>>>>>>>>> felt like the national convention is turning into more of a
>>>>>>>>>> carnival with all the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and
>>>>>>>>>> much of banquet that used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> now taken up with prize drawings and the like.
>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut
>>>>>>>>>> due to a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable
>>>>>>>>>> income sources. So NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the
>>>>>>>>>> alternative could be a loss of programs and resources.
>>>>>>>>>> I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>>>>>>>>>> membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>>>>>>>>>> shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> to join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
>>>>>>>>>> judgment of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is
>>>>>>>>>> perception only, and part of it is reality. The NFB is
>>>>>>>>>> stereotyped
>>>>>>>>>> as a radical one-size-fits-all organization, and new members
>>>>>>>>>> expecting to find that could be especially sensitive to cues of
>>>>>>>>>> hostility. However, there probably is some real lack of
>>>>>>>>>> acceptance
>>>>>>>>>> among certain segments of the organization, which, again, is
>>>>>>>>>> unfortunate. I will say that I am not the most graceful blind
>>>>>>>>>> person and was relatively unskilled when I first joined, and I
>>>>>>>>>> still felt completely accepted. But I know not all of us are so
>>>>>>>>>> lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have a negative
>>>>>>>>>> experience to try again in a different chapter or division and
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps they will find acceptance there. But at the same time,
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>> something we need to be sensitive to in the organization.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello all.
>>>>>>>>>>> This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my
>>>>>>>>>>> own life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>>> size fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB
>>>>>>>>>>> does.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>>> mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and
>>>>>>>>>>> Seminary
>>>>>>>>>>> without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have
>>>>>>>>>>> a mentoor.
>>>>>>>>>>> RJ
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
>>>>>>>>>>>> there I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt
>>>>>>>>>>>> glad
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be in the company
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited
>>>>>>>>>>>> me as a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up
>>>>>>>>>>>> my summer as a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> business with the real world. I would never take away someone's
>>>>>>>>>>>> enthusiasm from attending a national convention or Washington
>>>>>>>>>>>> Seminar or one of the weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They are very well-suited to boost a person's spirit, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>> believe too many people fall through the cracks when faced with
>>>>>>>>>>>> reality outside of those infrequent gatherings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>>>>>>>>>>>> nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in
>>>>>>>>>>>> turn it needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I
>>>>>>>>>>>> found it rather disappointing that so much of the board meeting
>>>>>>>>>>>> I tuned into listen to last summer was dominated by calls to
>>>>>>>>>>>> raise money for this fund or that effort. I found it even
>>>>>>>>>>>> sadder
>>>>>>>>>>>> that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our monthly dose of
>>>>>>>>>>>> inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus of
>>>>>>>>>>>> generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the
>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mails from so-called friends from whom
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB fundraising campaigns.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
>>>>>>>>>>>> about the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help
>>>>>>>>>>>> lead
>>>>>>>>>>>> development efforts for other nonprofits outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness field, also national in scope.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
>>>>>>>>>>>> recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
>>>>>>>>>>>> strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>>>>>>>>>>>> professionals.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
>>>>>>>>>>>> ever will be and have accomplished more than I may ever
>>>>>>>>>>>> achieve,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but they shun the organization because they were turned away or
>>>>>>>>>>>> because they were never welcomed in the first place. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>> something I should have kept in mind when I had my brief taste
>>>>>>>>>>>> of leadership in the organization. I had too much of
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was
>>>>>>>>>>>> reliable
>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should
>>>>>>>>>>>> have really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women
>>>>>>>>>>>> who could have made the NFB lots better, listening to new
>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and most important, remaining true to the cause and not some
>>>>>>>>>>>> multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
>>>>>>>>>>>> sustaining.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>> to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
>>>>>>>>>>>> know what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college
>>>>>>>>>>>> kids on the verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to
>>>>>>>>>>>> know the NFB banner will only guide your way so far. Take
>>>>>>>>>>>> what's
>>>>>>>>>>>> great about the organization and leave the political drama and
>>>>>>>>>>>> marketing ploys behind. In the end it will be your own wits and
>>>>>>>>>>>> talents that will earn your pay check. The NFB will never give
>>>>>>>>>>>> you anything new. The philosophy merely helps you uncover what
>>>>>>>>>>>> you always had
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB
>>>>>>>>>>>> president,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave
>>>>>>>>>>>> enough to reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer
>>>>>>>>>>>> live in a world where the NFB is necessary for collective
>>>>>>>>>>>> momentum. Technology has seen to that.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Whether
>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>> not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
>>>>>>>>>>>> want it to exist.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
>>>>>>>>>>>> what I've found from the people I've met on that side of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> house? They seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to
>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out in our camp. The few victories they celebrate they
>>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>>> with even less money. Let that be a lesson in financial
>>>>>>>>>>>> management to you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>>>>>>>>>>>> would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
>>>>>>>>>>>> only goal was to provide different perspectives to the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> generation of leaders coming up through the ranks. After all,
>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>> you never taste the real world, you have no business leading.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's like the teacher who teaches because they couldn't cut
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, and believe it or not, I want to see more and more of you
>>>>>>>>>>>> excel at whatever it is you want to do. The more of you there
>>>>>>>>>>>> are, the greater our strength.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here
>>>>>>>>>>>> lest I be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some
>>>>>>>>>>>> lame attempt to answer the original question, my answer would
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
>>>>>>>>>>>> what will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit my blog:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://joeorozco.com/blog
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>>> info for
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacks
>>>>>>>>>>>> andefur%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>>> le%40frontier.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> mail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%4
>>>>>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>> 0visi.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>> 40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>> net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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