[nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
Ashlee g
hotdancer1416 at gmail.com
Fri Apr 4 16:43:52 UTC 2014
i am autistic, and have thought about giving tahlks about being blind and autistic, and how to deal with my communication needs.
AUTISM IS NOT A DISEASE! I AM AN AUTISM ADVOCATE, WRITER, AND SPEAKER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE, OR WANT ME TO COME SPEAK, CALL ME AT 711,443,682,8862 OR LEAVE ME A MEOR TEXT ME AT 410,417,6676.
> On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:39, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Good morning, Kaiti,
>
> Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from those kind of blind people speaking for themselves.
> Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off the ground!
> for today, Car
>
> those who wish to support
>> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student
>> divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are
>> concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support
>> is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which
>> state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily
>> in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has
>> students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary,
>> and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student
>> at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational
>> experience better for us.
>>
>> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation
>> as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and
>> contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not
>> directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because
>> I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my
>> line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and
>> have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this
>> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though
>> admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have
>> identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just
>> know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to
>> be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have
>> a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I
>> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The
>> president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed
>> with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must
>> be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the
>> division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested
>> in giving support to join.
>>
>> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that
>> emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside
>> member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the
>> situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the
>> members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness,
>> but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with
>> the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but
>> since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division
>> a few months ago, where several members were offended because they
>> interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help
>> from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be
>> helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from
>> having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not
>> just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about.
>>
>> On 4/4/14, Darian <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for someone who
>> > cannot speak for themselves?
>> > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one can hope to be
>> > in another person's best interest.
>> > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time and it will
>> > not be the last time.
>> >
>> > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device.
>> >
>> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi <denverqueen1107 at comcast.net>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of
>> >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does not make me
>> >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those
>> >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves
>> >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of people like me,
>> >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not
>> >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by
>> >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in point, a guy
>> >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the prodromal symtpoms,
>> >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer speaks, rather
>> >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't
>> >> even speak for himself, much less others.
>> >> Beth
>> >>
>> >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote:
>> >>> Good evening, Kaiti,
>> >>>
>> >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called
>> >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation
>> >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of
>> >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill?
>> >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>> >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some
>> >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill
>> >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself, I am going
>> >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with clients who have
>> >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a
>> >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might
>> >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little
>> >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able
>> >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as
>> >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution
>> >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be
>> >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a
>> >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long
>> >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are free to join
>> >>>> and aid in the cause.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
>> >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone,
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle
>> >>>> > illness!
>> >>>> > for today, Car
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote:
>> >>>> >>Hi Ariel,
>> >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support.
>> >>>> >> Which
>> >>>> >> is
>> >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days.
>> >>>> >> Sam
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>-----Original Message-----
>> >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>> >>>> >>Silverman
>> >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM
>> >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human services division
>> >>>> >> could
>> >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or division that
>> >>>> >> is
>> >>>> >> led
>> >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness.
>> >>>> >>Arielle
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson <nelsonsam68 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> > Hi everyone,
>> >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred
>> >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between
>> >>>> >> > support/
>> >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other disabilities
>> >>>> >> > along
>> >>>> >>with blindness.
>> >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental
>> >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists
>> >>>> >> > and
>> >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental illnessor how
>> >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of
>> >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not understanding how
>> >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's own getting a
>> >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't
>> >>>> >> > allow
>> >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal.
>> >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called
>> >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it since May and it
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each other day to
>> >>>> >> > day
>> >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if
>> >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship.
>> >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only psychiatric
>> >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind. Does anyone know
>> >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere
>> >>>> >> > for a
>> >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the
>> >>>> >> > program
>> >>>> >> > and how they do things.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Sam
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth
>> >>>> >> > Taurasi
>> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM
>> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing
>> >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get guardianship because
>> >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated suicide because
>> >>>> >> > of
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >>guardianship.
>> >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off MySpace, but they
>> >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a
>> >>>> >> > case
>> >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it
>> >>>> >> > affects
>> >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my relationship
>> >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep
>> >>>> >> > down,
>> >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver.
>> >>>> >> > But
>> >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To say that such
>> >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984
>> >>>> >> > "unpersons"
>> >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be complicated, and
>> >>>> >> > if
>> >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh.
>> >>>> >> > Beth
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
>> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400
>> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
>> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Hello all,
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections between the blind,
>> >>>> >> > (we
>> >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this conversation),
>> >>>> >> > and
>> >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other disabilities
>> >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the
>> >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like the NFB is a
>> >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for
>> >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other groups are the
>> >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay,
>> >>>> >> > then
>> >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships
>> >>>> >> > with
>> >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various
>> >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might have phrased
>> >>>> >> > it
>> >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree
>> >>>> >> > described,
>> >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened. Especially since, as
>> >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together and discuss
>> >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their discussion
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars
>> >>>> >> > rather
>> >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind
>> >>>> >> > people
>> >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not okay? To me,
>> >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would label myself as
>> >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label
>> >>>> >> > myself
>> >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature
>> >>>> >> > are
>> >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives
>> >>>> >> > aren't
>> >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is
>> >>>> >> > important
>> >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB
>> >>>> >> > had
>> >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what
>> >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in
>> >>>> >> > this
>> >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of
>> >>>> >> > convention?
>> >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or anything else? I
>> >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double
>> >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the
>> >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are different from us
>> >>>> >> > are
>> >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to
>> >>>> >> > suit
>> >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right.
>> >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will
>> >>>> >> > never
>> >>>> >> > happen again.
>> >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and
>> >>>> >> > then
>> >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it going. IMO
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight
>> >>>> >> > and
>> >>>> >> > be the darling of
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with
>> >>>> >> > chapters and
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and
>> >>>> >> > wondering
>> >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give
>> >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person.
>> >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who were born and
>> >>>> >> > grew up in
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the
>> >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day.
>> >>>> >> > Best Wishes
>> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
>> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
>> >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened, especially
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to see something
>> >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I
>> >>>> >> > completely
>> >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for
>> >>>> >> > every
>> >>>> >>special interest.
>> >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what
>> >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a
>> >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and
>> >>>> >> > then
>> >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We
>> >>>> >> > can't
>> >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically
>> >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the
>> >>>> >> > general
>> >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been polled about
>> >>>> >> > whether
>> >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations?
>> >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that
>> >>>> >> > reflects
>> >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political views alone,
>> >>>> >> > we
>> >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are
>> >>>> >> > formed
>> >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful enough to justify
>> >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed out, a well-run
>> >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the
>> >>>> >> > hassle
>> >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least some of the
>> >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy with just a
>> >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Arielle
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list.
>> >>>> >> > But the
>> >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues. However this is
>> >>>> >> > not
>> >>>> >> > occurring.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of blindness. Yet, we are a
>> >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become
>> >>>> >> > more
>> >>>> >> > diverse. I also
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that
>> >>>> >> > if
>> >>>> >> > they have
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do
>> >>>> >> > anything
>> >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came
>> >>>> >> > together
>> >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and
>> >>>> >> > transgendered
>> >>>> >>people.
>> >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
>> >>>> >> > announcement and
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people
>> >>>> >> > left
>> >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for
>> >>>> >> > social
>> >>>> >> > purposes.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many
>> >>>> >> > more
>> >>>> >> > changes
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going to wait and
>> >>>> >> > see
>> >>>> >> > what happens.
>> >>>> >> > Have a blessed day.
>> >>>> >> > Best Wishes
>> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
>> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
>> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
>> >>>> >> > multipledisabilities?
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Hi all,
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an important issue
>> >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more blind folks
>> >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several reasons, the number
>> >>>> >> > of
>> >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase,
>> >>>> >> > and
>> >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional
>> >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in advocacy is
>> >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
>> >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that
>> >>>> >> > people
>> >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
>> >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
>> >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's particularly true
>> >>>> >> > when
>> >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual disabilities and
>> >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
>> >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be
>> >>>> >> > highly
>> >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort
>> >>>> >> > from
>> >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
>> >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can
>> >>>> >> > feel
>> >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble holding down
>> >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and downs of mental
>> >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly creative and
>> >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are getting lost.
>> >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people with multiple
>> >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
>> >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > help
>> >>>> >>them with.
>> >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
>> >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more
>> >>>> >> > divisions
>> >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other conditions. There is
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great things about
>> >>>> >> > its
>> >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
>> >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind
>> >>>> >> > wheelchair
>> >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to discuss with each
>> >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed.
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with mental health
>> >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there
>> >>>> >> > are
>> >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions
>> >>>> >> > don't
>> >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there
>> >>>> >> > just
>> >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I
>> >>>> >> > think
>> >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional
>> >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the organization,
>> >>>> >> > and
>> >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education
>> >>>> >> > about
>> >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a
>> >>>> >> > whole
>> >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would
>> >>>> >> > be
>> >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with
>> >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is
>> >>>> >> > something
>> >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership positions in
>> >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the
>> >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are
>> >>>> >> > going
>> >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Best,
>> >>>> >> > Arielle
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
>> >>>> >> > Joe and others,
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
>> >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human beings and
>> >>>> >> > we
>> >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one
>> >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of right or wrong
>> >>>> >> > as
>> >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while back now on an
>> >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise more funds than
>> >>>> >> > we
>> >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB
>> >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When you look at
>> >>>> >> > our
>> >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare legislative successes
>> >>>> >> > as
>> >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that legislative successes
>> >>>> >> > are
>> >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree
>> >>>> >> > with
>> >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the ACB has made
>> >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel
>> >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by
>> >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for example. There
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will
>> >>>> >> > force
>> >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to believe this
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us,
>> >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself.
>> >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to understand
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting
>> >>>> >> > information
>> >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > at some point.
>> >>>> >> > However, I
>> >>>> >> > got
>> >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the
>> >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting
>> >>>> >> > information
>> >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant portion of our
>> >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it was something
>> >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when I held up a
>> >>>> >> > KNFB
>> >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a national convention
>> >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have it start to read
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand kids who have
>> >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our
>> >>>> >> > efforts.
>> >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind
>> >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the technology field. We
>> >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of
>> >>>> >> > this
>> >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all
>> >>>> >> > this.
>> >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives.
>> >>>> >> > We
>> >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
>> >>>> >> > difference.
>> >>>> >> > Frankly,
>> >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from what doesn't
>> >>>> >> > work
>> >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make a mistake you
>> >>>> >> > can
>> >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand
>> >>>> >> > kids
>> >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we did with the
>> >>>> >> > KNFB
>> >>>> >>reader?
>> >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might we ever see
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret
>> >>>> >> > software
>> >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > educate every person who writes
>> >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a
>> >>>> >> > way
>> >>>> >> > for us
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars
>> >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that
>> >>>> >> > at
>> >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't
>> >>>> >> > really
>> >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots
>> >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have had any affect
>> >>>> >> > on
>> >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for
>> >>>> >> > that.
>> >>>> >> > But it also means that we change.
>> >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to
>> >>>> >> > change.
>> >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges
>> >>>> >> > of
>> >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way,
>> >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as individuals and
>> >>>> >> > as
>> >>>> >> > an organization.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
>> >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing
>> >>>> >> > does
>> >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to draw conclusions
>> >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and
>> >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking employment as
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND
>> >>>> >> > Incorporated
>> >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other centers. Some of the
>> >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to
>> >>>> >> > have
>> >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one
>> >>>> >> > tool.
>> >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training.
>> >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
>> >>>> >> > Legislating
>> >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot
>> >>>> >> > discriminate
>> >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't
>> >>>> >> > matter
>> >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training
>> >>>> >> > won't
>> >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education.
>> >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that
>> >>>> >> > problem
>> >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't
>> >>>> >> > pick
>> >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success by itself,
>> >>>> >> > and
>> >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing on its own.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to
>> >>>> >> > impact
>> >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget than we were.
>> >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where
>> >>>> >> > we
>> >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what
>> >>>> >> > can
>> >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we
>> >>>> >> > need
>> >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
>> >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of this organization.
>> >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our understanding of
>> >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is what has set
>> >>>> >> > us
>> >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching
>> >>>> >> > out
>> >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Best regards,
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Arielle,
>> >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Joe,
>> >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
>> >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while I deeply respect
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the raw potential the
>> >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined with back in
>> >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this
>> >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs
>> >>>> >> > members
>> >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and who are willing
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a no-nonsense way that
>> >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when those of us
>> >>>> >> > less
>> >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with political power
>> >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national level, and more
>> >>>> >> > still within our local chapters.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
>> >>>> >> > <arielle71 at gmail.com
>> >>>> >> > wrote:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Hi Joe,
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
>> >>>> >> > saying
>> >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt
>> >>>> >> > like
>> >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with
>> >>>> >> > all
>> >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with
>> >>>> >> > prize
>> >>>> >> > drawings and the like.
>> >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it
>> >>>> >> > is
>> >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have been cut due
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady reliable income
>> >>>> >>sources.
>> >>>> >> > So
>> >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the alternative could be
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources.
>> >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned away or refused
>> >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
>> >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective members choose not
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
>> >>>> >> > judgment
>> >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception
>> >>>> >> > only,
>> >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical
>> >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members expecting to find
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility. However, there
>> >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain segments of
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am
>> >>>> >> > not
>> >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively unskilled when I
>> >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted. But I know not
>> >>>> >> > all
>> >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective members who have
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or
>> >>>> >> > division
>> >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there.
>> >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be sensitive to
>> >>>> >> > in
>> >>>> >> > the organization.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Arielle
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com>
>> >>>> >> > wrote:
>> >>>> >> > Hello all.
>> >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my
>> >>>> >> > own
>> >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe in a one size
>> >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
>> >>>> >> > Thanks.
>> >>>> >> > Mike
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur
>> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
>> >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
>> >>>> >> > mailing list
>> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college, and Seminary
>> >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been nice to have a
>> >>>> >>mentoor.
>> >>>> >> > RJ
>> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >>>> >> > From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com
>> >>>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
>> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
>> >>>> >> > there
>> >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt glad to be
>> >>>> >> > in
>> >>>> >> > the company
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > of
>> >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges that awaited me
>> >>>> >> > as
>> >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished up my summer
>> >>>> >> > as
>> >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my business with
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from
>> >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very
>> >>>> >> > well-suited
>> >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall
>> >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those
>> >>>> >> > infrequent
>> >>>> >>gatherings.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
>> >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself, and in turn
>> >>>> >> > it
>> >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it
>> >>>> >> > rather
>> >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into
>> >>>> >> > listen
>> >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money for this fund
>> >>>> >> > or
>> >>>> >> > that
>> >>>> >>effort.
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > found
>> >>>> >> > it
>> >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our
>> >>>> >> > monthly
>> >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just to the focus
>> >>>> >> > of
>> >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but
>> >>>> >> > perhaps
>> >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails
>> >>>> >> > from
>> >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to contribute to their
>> >>>> >> > NFB
>> >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
>> >>>> >> > about
>> >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead
>> >>>> >> > development
>> >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness field, also
>> >>>> >> > national in scope.
>> >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never felt like the
>> >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
>> >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
>> >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
>> >>>> >> > professionals.
>> >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
>> >>>> >> > ever
>> >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but
>> >>>> >> > they
>> >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because
>> >>>> >> > they
>> >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should
>> >>>> >> > have
>> >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the
>> >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I was reliable
>> >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done should have
>> >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who
>> >>>> >> > could
>> >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new ideas, and most
>> >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some
>> >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
>> >>>> >> > sustaining.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
>> >>>> >> > don't
>> >>>> >> > want
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > it
>> >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
>> >>>> >> > know
>> >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the college kids on
>> >>>> >> > the
>> >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB
>> >>>> >> > banner
>> >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the
>> >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys
>> >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and talents that will
>> >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new.
>> >>>> >> > The
>> >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB president,
>> >>>> >> > and
>> >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is brave enough to
>> >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a
>> >>>> >> > world
>> >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology
>> >>>> >> > has
>> >>>> >> > seen
>> >>>> >>to that.
>> >>>> >> > Whether
>> >>>> >> > or
>> >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
>> >>>> >> > want
>> >>>> >> > it to exist.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
>> >>>> >> > what
>> >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house?
>> >>>> >> > They
>> >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to figure out in
>> >>>> >> > our
>> >>>> >>camp.
>> >>>> >> > The
>> >>>> >> > few
>> >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less money. Let that be
>> >>>> >> > a
>> >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
>> >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
>> >>>> >> > only
>> >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new generation
>> >>>> >> > of
>> >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never
>> >>>> >> > taste
>> >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the
>> >>>> >> > teacher
>> >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe it or not,
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it is you want
>> >>>> >> > to
>> >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to myself here lest
>> >>>> >> > I
>> >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame
>> >>>> >> > attempt
>> >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are humility to
>> >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
>> >>>> >> > what
>> >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Joe
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > --
>> >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > Visit my blog:
>> >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa
>> >>>> >> > ndefur%40gmail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel
>> >>>> >> > le%40frontier.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g
>> >>>> >> > mail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%
>> >>>> >> > 40gmail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso
>> >>>> >> > n%40visi.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g
>> >>>> >> > mail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g
>> >>>> >> > mail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g
>> >>>> >> > mail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40g
>> >>>> >> > mail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarine
>> >>>> >> > t104%40gmail.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > --
>> >>>> >> > Kaiti
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen11
>> >>>> >> > 07%40comcast.net
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/samnelson1%40veriz
>> >>>> >> > on.net
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > ---
>> >>>> >> > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
>> >>>> >> > Antivirus
>> >>>> >> > protection is active.
>> >>>> >> > http://www.avast.com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> >>>> >> > for
>> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.
>> >>>> >> > com
>> >>>> >> >
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>>> >>nabs-l:
>> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nelsonsam 68%40gmail.com
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>---
>> >>>> >>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
>> >>>> >>protection is active.
>> >>>> >>http://www.avast.com
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>_______________________________________________
>> >>>> >>nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>>> >> nabs-l:
>> >>>> >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih% 40comcast.net
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> >
>> >>>> > _______________________________________________
>> >>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>>> > nabs-l:
>> >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>> >>>> >
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Kaiti
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>>> nabs-l:
>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> nabs-l mailing list
>> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >>> nabs-l:
>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> nabs-l mailing list
>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> nabs-l:
>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > nabs-l:
>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hotdancer1416%40gmail.com
More information about the NABS-L
mailing list