[nabs-l] How can NFB better include peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
Carly Mihalakis
carlymih at comcast.net
Fri Apr 4 21:48:37 UTC 2014
Hi, Ashley,
Might you simply call me in Berkeley, California at
408-209-3239? Your number is too complicated!
for today, CarAt 09:43 AM 4/4/2014, you wrote:
>i am autistic, and have thought about giving tahlks about being
>blind and autistic, and how to deal with my communication needs.
>
>AUTISM IS NOT A DISEASE! I AM AN AUTISM ADVOCATE, WRITER, AND
>SPEAKER. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE, OR WANT ME TO COME SPEAK,
>CALL ME AT 711,443,682,8862 OR LEAVE ME A MEOR TEXT ME AT 410,417,6676.
>
> > On Apr 4, 2014, at 12:39, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > Good morning, Kaiti,
> >
> > Guess I failed to consider how supporting blind people with
> mental illness and as in my case, brain damage, is separate from
> those kind of blind people speaking for themselves.
> > Would be interested as to whether such a group ever gets off the ground!
> > for today, Car
> >
> > those who wish to support
> >> others with mental illness, and gave the example of how student
> >> divisions also welcome those who are not students but who are
> >> concerned with the education of blind people who are, because support
> >> is welcome. Yet, in the student groups, there are mandates which
> >> state blind students who are full-time need to be leaders, primarily
> >> in presidential and vice presidential positions. Case: My board has
> >> students as president, vice president, treasurer, recording secretary,
> >> and our 2 board members. Our corresponding secretary is not a student
> >> at the time, but still supports the work we do to make the educational
> >> experience better for us.
> >>
> >> This is the model for all our divisions and groups, and the federation
> >> as a whole. I just didn't want those who could be helpful and
> >> contribute to the group to be shut out simply because they were not
> >> directly effected by mental illness. I also did not say that because
> >> I think the mentally ill need someone else to speak for them; in my
> >> line of work I'm in contact with those who have mental illness, and
> >> have also seen some very articulate and thought-out responses on this
> >> list (Beth, Sam, and Desiree to name a few). These people, though
> >> admittedly mentally ill, are smart and talented people who have
> >> identified a need, and are working towards finding a solution. I just
> >> know personally that I support them in their cause, and would like to
> >> be included in making it happen in spite of the fact that I don't have
> >> a mental illness myself because I do see it as important. I
> >> definitely think that following a model along the lines of, "The
> >> president and vice president of the division must have been diagnosed
> >> with a mental illness," and "A majority of the division's members must
> >> be blind persons diagnosed with mental illness," would serve the
> >> division well, and would also allow for those who are just interested
> >> in giving support to join.
> >>
> >> Another benefit to this, that I now see, is that in the event that
> >> emotions run high or something on a call, meeting, etc, an outside
> >> member who is in a mental health profession could help to diffuse the
> >> situation and restore order. This still would not be speaking for the
> >> members of the division who are directly effected by mental illness,
> >> but it would help them to take a step back and prepare to go on with
> >> the meeting. I do not even know if such a thing could happen, but
> >> since we had a pretty bad misunderstanding in my own student division
> >> a few months ago, where several members were offended because they
> >> interpreted a situation a number of different ways, and we needed help
> >> from our affiliate liaison to fully diffuse the situation, it might be
> >> helpful. Personally, I think every group of people can benefit from
> >> having contact with an outside party to do this as well, so I'm not
> >> just suggesting it based on the potential group we're talking about.
> >>
> >> On 4/4/14, Darian <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > But here is something to think about; how can anyone speak for
> someone who
> >> > cannot speak for themselves?
> >> > The best that one might be able to do is to act in what one
> can hope to be
> >> > in another person's best interest.
> >> > I could be wrong though. If so, it hasn't been the first time
> and it will
> >> > not be the last time.
> >> >
> >> > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device.
> >> >
> >> >> On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:58 AM, Beth Taurasi <denverqueen1107 at comcast.net>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I've got some bad news. The mentally ill are not always capable of
> >> >> speaking for themselves. I am lucky in that my illness does
> not make me
> >> >> unable to speak for myself, but there are schizophrenics and those
> >> >> affected by hallucinations, grief, etc. who can't speak for themselves
> >> >> because they can't relate. Some people need the voices of
> people like me,
> >> >> Kaiti, etc. who can speak for them. Some mentally ill people are not
> >> >> really ill. Some of the mentally ill are so badly damaged by
> >> >> schizophrenic symptoms that they can't even speak. Case in
> point, a guy
> >> >> called Mike. He was a world class runner before the
> prodromal symtpoms,
> >> >> the first stages of schizophrenia, appeared. He no longer
> speaks, rather
> >> >> he died after being hit by a car. But while he was alive, he couldn't
> >> >> even speak for himself, much less others.
> >> >> Beth
> >> >>
> >> >>> On 4/4/2014 12:33 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote:
> >> >>> Good evening, Kaiti,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> All those things look good on paper, but what about the so-called
> >> >>> mentally ill, speaking for themselves? Isn't that how the Federation
> >> >>> likes to be perceived? That, "blind" people are perfectly capable of
> >> >>> speaking for themselves? Is not a same true for the mentally ill?
> >> >>> for today, Car/2014, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
> >> >>>> I think a good thing might look something like this:
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> A group and/or division led by a person with mental illness of some
> >> >>>> sort, but also open for those interested in work with mentally ill
> >> >>>> people. Even though I do not have a mental illness myself,
> I am going
> >> >>>> into a profession where I will most liikely work with
> clients who have
> >> >>>> mental illness throughout my career. I would love to support such a
> >> >>>> group, and think that others in situations similar to my own might
> >> >>>> want to do the same. Plus, this follows the division model a little
> >> >>>> more closely. More people than those directly effected would be able
> >> >>>> to join, but someone who is directly effected would serve as
> >> >>>> president. I know in my affiliate student division, our constitution
> >> >>>> states that the president and vice president must be planning to be
> >> >>>> full-time students in the year following their election, and a
> >> >>>> majority of the division members must be blind students, but as long
> >> >>>> as those guidelines are met non-blind or non-students are
> free to join
> >> >>>> and aid in the cause.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On 4/3/14, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
> >> >>>> > Good morning, Sam, and everyone,
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > A must! Hot line workers must themselves have mentle
> >> >>>> > illness!
> >> >>>> > for today, Car
> >> >>>> >
> >> >>>> > At 02:24 PM 4/2/2014, Sam Nelson wrote:
> >> >>>> >>Hi Ariel,
> >> >>>> >> I agree. I love the hotline idea! It would be true peer support.
> >> >>>> >> Which
> >> >>>> >> is
> >> >>>> >>such a big thing in mental illness recovery these days.
> >> >>>> >> Sam
> >> >>>> >>
> >> >>>> >>-----Original Message-----
> >> >>>> >>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Arielle
> >> >>>> >>Silverman
> >> >>>> >>Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 4:07 PM
> >> >>>> >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> >>>> >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
> >> >>>> >>peoplewithmultipledisabilities mental illness
> >> >>>> >>
> >> >>>> >>I think the hotline idea is a great one. The human
> services division
> >> >>>> >> could
> >> >>>> >>work on that, but it would be great to have a group or
> division that
> >> >>>> >> is
> >> >>>> >> led
> >> >>>> >>by blind people with mental illness.
> >> >>>> >>Arielle
> >> >>>> >>
> >> >>>> >>On 4/2/14, Sam Nelson <nelsonsam68 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>> >> > Hi everyone,
> >> >>>> >> > I'm not very much into the NFB in a lot of ways but one hundred
> >> >>>> >> > percent agree that there needs to be more connection between
> >> >>>> >> > support/
> >> >>>> >> > services for the blind and for those that have other
> disabilities
> >> >>>> >> > along
> >> >>>> >>with blindness.
> >> >>>> >> > Personally I've seen this disconnect with blindness and mental
> >> >>>> >> > illness. I agree with everything Desiree said about therapists
> >> >>>> >> > and
> >> >>>> >> > them not understanding how blindness impacts mental
> illnessor how
> >> >>>> >> > mental illness might affect blindness. I've also seen a lot of
> >> >>>> >> > misunderstanding with blindness profesionals not
> understanding how
> >> >>>> >> > mental illness might interfere with living on one's
> own getting a
> >> >>>> >> > standard full time job ETC and so their scope of services don't
> >> >>>> >> > allow
> >> >>>> >> > for anything outside what they perceive to be normal.
> >> >>>> >> > I do want to give a shout out that I run an e-mail list called
> >> >>>> >> > blind-mentalhealth on yahoo. I've been running it
> since May and it
> >> >>>> >> > is
> >> >>>> >> > a very close knit community and we all support each
> other day to
> >> >>>> >> > day
> >> >>>> >> > with these struggles, providing encouragement and resources if
> >> >>>> >> > possible and most of all just our friendship.
> >> >>>> >> > Lastly I've heard of a center in NY that has the only
> psychiatric
> >> >>>> >> > clinic and daytreatment program for the blind.
> Does anyone know
> >> >>>> >> > anthing about this program? I've tried looking online everywhere
> >> >>>> >> > for a
> >> >>>> >> > contact person as I'd be very curious to know more about the
> >> >>>> >> > program
> >> >>>> >> > and how they do things.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Sam
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>> >> > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Beth
> >> >>>> >> > Taurasi
> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 11:22 PM
> >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
> >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Good ranting, Kaiti. As someone who could fall under the thing
> >> >>>> >> > Desiree described, someone whose parents get
> guardianship because
> >> >>>> >> > they're sighted and "healthy", I had contemplated
> suicide because
> >> >>>> >> > of
> >> >>>> >> > that
> >> >>>> >>guardianship.
> >> >>>> >> > Because of that, my parents tried to take me off
> MySpace, but they
> >> >>>> >> > will not take me off Facebook. I am currently working to get a
> >> >>>> >> > case
> >> >>>> >> > against them because the guardianship is way too broad, and it
> >> >>>> >> > affects
> >> >>>> >> > lots of my man to woman relationships. Currently, my
> relationship
> >> >>>> >> > with my friend Blake, a guy from Arizona, is rocky, but yet deep
> >> >>>> >> > down,
> >> >>>> >> > I wish I could swoop Blake up and take him back here to Denver.
> >> >>>> >> > But
> >> >>>> >> > alas, the guardianship prevents us from marrying. To
> say that such
> >> >>>> >> > persons are "nonpersons" or in the case of Orwell's 1984
> >> >>>> >> > "unpersons"
> >> >>>> >> > is wrong. The way to say it in Newspeak would be
> complicated, and
> >> >>>> >> > if
> >> >>>> >> > such a newspeak word was invented, it would sound harsh.
> >> >>>> >> > Beth
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> >> > From: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com
> >> >>>> >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date sent: Tue, 1 Apr 2014 22:30:32 -0400
> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include
> >> >>>> >> > peoplewithmultipledisabilities?
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Hello all,
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > In answer to Carly's question about connections
> between the blind,
> >> >>>> >> > (we
> >> >>>> >> > may call them "just blind" for the purposes of this
> conversation),
> >> >>>> >> > and
> >> >>>> >> > those with blindness and other disabilities, or other
> disabilities
> >> >>>> >> > without blindness, I think organizational relationships are the
> >> >>>> >> > starting point to working interpersonally. Much like
> the NFB is a
> >> >>>> >> > huge group of blind people, and is often used as a catalyst for
> >> >>>> >> > working interpersonally to accomplish tasks, other
> groups are the
> >> >>>> >> > same. If we want to work interpersonally with the deaf, persay,
> >> >>>> >> > then
> >> >>>> >> > we need to go where the deaf are and start forming relationships
> >> >>>> >> > with
> >> >>>> >> > that group. Once repore is established, people from the various
> >> >>>> >> > organizations can work interpersonally. Darian might
> have phrased
> >> >>>> >> > it
> >> >>>> >> > better than I did, but it's the same sort of view.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I was admittedly not around for that episode that Desiree
> >> >>>> >> > described,
> >> >>>> >> > but I'm really sad to hear that it happened.
> Especially since, as
> >> >>>> >> > Arielle pointed out, there are some pretty out there groups like
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > car one. I mean, it's okay for people to get together
> and discuss
> >> >>>> >> > cars that we can't even drive (yet at least), so their
> discussion
> >> >>>> >> > is
> >> >>>> >> > purely based on mechanical and aesthetic knowledge of the cars
> >> >>>> >> > rather
> >> >>>> >> > than a personal user experience, but a support group for blind
> >> >>>> >> > people
> >> >>>> >> > who are seen as a minority for another reason is not
> okay? To me,
> >> >>>> >> > that just doesn't make sense.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I'm not particularly religious, and probably would
> label myself as
> >> >>>> >> > unitarian even though I was raised catholic if I had to label
> >> >>>> >> > myself
> >> >>>> >> > at all, so I realize my personal views on things of that nature
> >> >>>> >> > are
> >> >>>> >> > more liberal than the views of others. However, conservatives
> >> >>>> >> > aren't
> >> >>>> >> > always going to be happy, just as liberals aren't, and it is
> >> >>>> >> > important
> >> >>>> >> > that we compromise. I was not under the impression that the NFB
> >> >>>> >> > had
> >> >>>> >> > any religious affiliation, and even remember asking someone what
> >> >>>> >> > Invocation was, because I really didn't know the term. Even in
> >> >>>> >> > this
> >> >>>> >> > light, why is Christianity made such a prevalent part of
> >> >>>> >> > convention?
> >> >>>> >> > What about those who practice Islam, Judism, or
> anything else? I
> >> >>>> >> > would hate for a majority faction within the NFB to shun double
> >> >>>> >> > minority members, because after all, we're all minorities in the
> >> >>>> >> > greater world, so to pretend that those who are
> different from us
> >> >>>> >> > are
> >> >>>> >> > less valuable or don't deserve the right to organize a group to
> >> >>>> >> > suit
> >> >>>> >> > their unique set of needs or circumstances doesn't seem right.
> >> >>>> >> > Sorry for the rant.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>> >> > Arielle once again. You are so right! I also hope that will
> >> >>>> >> > never
> >> >>>> >> > happen again.
> >> >>>> >> > Another way to look at this is, many devisions get started and
> >> >>>> >> > then
> >> >>>> >> > they just fall by the waist side. Noone will keep it
> going. IMO
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > devisions are started by people that have to be in the spotlight
> >> >>>> >> > and
> >> >>>> >> > be the darling of
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > the Federation and the devision suffers. The same happens with
> >> >>>> >> > chapters and
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > state devisions. Then everyone is shaking their head and
> >> >>>> >> > wondering
> >> >>>> >> > what happened and why this person didn't work out. I could give
> >> >>>> >> > examples of backing the wrong person.
> >> >>>> >> > Finally, I always felt badly for those children who
> were born and
> >> >>>> >> > grew up in
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > the federation. They have a lot of pressure on them to be the
> >> >>>> >> > darling of the federation. Have a blessed day.
> >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes
> >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
> >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 5:37 PM
> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people
> >> >>>> >> > withmultipledisabilities?
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I too was at the NFB convention when the LGBT group wasn't able
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > announce its meetings. I'm disappointed this happened,
> especially
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > symbolic exclusion it represented, and hope never to
> see something
> >> >>>> >> > like that again as long as I am part of the Federation. I
> >> >>>> >> > completely
> >> >>>> >> > understand the leadership's desire not to have a division for
> >> >>>> >> > every
> >> >>>> >>special interest.
> >> >>>> >> > However, we need clearer and more evenhanded criteria about what
> >> >>>> >> > should constitute a division. It doesn't make sense to allow a
> >> >>>> >> > division for car enthusiasts with its own annual activities and
> >> >>>> >> > then
> >> >>>> >> > not even allow an LGBT group to advertise informal meet-ups. We
> >> >>>> >> > can't
> >> >>>> >> > try to say we don't want LGBT because it's too politically
> >> >>>> >> > controversial and then have religious invocations at all the
> >> >>>> >> > general
> >> >>>> >> > sessions. Has the general membership ever even been
> polled about
> >> >>>> >> > whether
> >> >>>> >>to keep having these religious invocations?
> >> >>>> >> > In other words, unless we want to be in an organization that
> >> >>>> >> > reflects
> >> >>>> >> > the president's or the board's interests and political
> views alone,
> >> >>>> >> > we
> >> >>>> >> > really need to have some transparency about how divisions are
> >> >>>> >> > formed
> >> >>>> >> > and what kinds of characteristics are meaningful
> enough to justify
> >> >>>> >> > forming a division. Furthermore, as Darian pointed
> out, a well-run
> >> >>>> >> > group can probably be just as effective without a lot of the
> >> >>>> >> > hassle
> >> >>>> >> > associated with keeping up a division. I know at least
> some of the
> >> >>>> >> > folks in the LGBT group would have been totally happy
> with just a
> >> >>>> >> > group, not a full division, but even that wasn't supported.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Arielle
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > On 4/1/14, melissa R Green <lissa1531 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>> >> > what a good topic. I know that there is a blind rollers list.
> >> >>>> >> > But the
> >> >>>> >> > devision never came into being. I think that the committee of
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > under served is supposed to address these issues.
> However this is
> >> >>>> >> > not
> >> >>>> >> > occurring.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I agree that nfb has a primary focus of
> blindness. Yet, we are a
> >> >>>> >> > diverse population. So I believe that the nfb needs to become
> >> >>>> >> > more
> >> >>>> >> > diverse. I also
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > believe that the leadership are going by their assumptions that
> >> >>>> >> > if
> >> >>>> >> > they have
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > a devision dedicated to a certain grou that it will not do
> >> >>>> >> > anything
> >> >>>> >> > to assist blind people. For example, years ago, a group came
> >> >>>> >> > together
> >> >>>> >> > and wanted to form a devision for blind gay bisexual and
> >> >>>> >> > transgendered
> >> >>>> >>people.
> >> >>>> >> > I was at the convention when doctor Maurer was reading the
> >> >>>> >> > announcement and
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > then he ripped it up in the middle of reading it. Many people
> >> >>>> >> > left
> >> >>>> >> > the federation because they felt that they were not wanted and
> >> >>>> >> > that
> >> >>>> >> > the leadership assumed that it would be a devision strictly for
> >> >>>> >> > social
> >> >>>> >> > purposes.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Many people are hopeful that the new president will bring many
> >> >>>> >> > more
> >> >>>> >> > changes
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > and lots of diversity to the federation. I am going
> to wait and
> >> >>>> >> > see
> >> >>>> >> > what happens.
> >> >>>> >> > Have a blessed day.
> >> >>>> >> > Best Wishes
> >> >>>> >> > Melissa R. Green and Pj
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> >> > From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com
> >> >>>> >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> >> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 3:53 PM
> >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] How can NFB better include people with
> >> >>>> >> > multipledisabilities?
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Hi all,
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I'd like to start a separate thread to address an
> important issue
> >> >>>> >> > that's come up recently. It's clear that more and more
> blind folks
> >> >>>> >> > today also have other disabilities. For several
> reasons, the number
> >> >>>> >> > of
> >> >>>> >> > blind people with additional disabilities is likely to increase,
> >> >>>> >> > and
> >> >>>> >> > more than that, the number of blind people with additional
> >> >>>> >> > disabilities who are getting educated and involved in
> advocacy is
> >> >>>> >> > likely to increase. I do think that, for the most part, the NFB
> >> >>>> >> > centers do a good job of tailoring training to the needs that
> >> >>>> >> > people
> >> >>>> >> > with other disabilities may have, but I also think that we as an
> >> >>>> >> > organization have far to go in order to truly appreciate the
> >> >>>> >> > contributions of all blind people. I think it's
> particularly true
> >> >>>> >> > when
> >> >>>> >> > we think about including people with intellectual
> disabilities and
> >> >>>> >> > mental illnesses. These kinds of conditions are stigmatized in
> >> >>>> >> > general, but especially since our leadership has tended to be
> >> >>>> >> > highly
> >> >>>> >> > educated and to stress academic excellence and consistent effort
> >> >>>> >> > from
> >> >>>> >> > the leadership, I can see how folks who have intellectual
> >> >>>> >> > disabilities, mental illnesses or chronic health conditions can
> >> >>>> >> > feel
> >> >>>> >> > left out. I've known some blind folks who had trouble
> holding down
> >> >>>> >> > leadership positions in the NFB due to the ups and
> downs of mental
> >> >>>> >> > illnesses, for example, but who are still incredibly
> creative and
> >> >>>> >> > passionate people with a lot of good ideas that are
> getting lost.
> >> >>>> >> > Further, as several folks have pointed out, people
> with multiple
> >> >>>> >> > disabilities can experience difficulties related to getting
> >> >>>> >> > employment, education, etc. that the NFB hasn't really been able
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > help
> >> >>>> >>them with.
> >> >>>> >> > I agree that NFB can't be expert about all disabilities, just
> >> >>>> >> > blindness, but I think there is a definite place for more
> >> >>>> >> > divisions
> >> >>>> >> > and groups within the NFB that focus on other
> conditions. There is
> >> >>>> >> > a
> >> >>>> >> > deaf-blind division, but I have not heard many great
> things about
> >> >>>> >> > its
> >> >>>> >> > effectiveness. I have heard about efforts to possibly start a
> >> >>>> >> > blind-rollers division, and it makes sense to me that blind
> >> >>>> >> > wheelchair
> >> >>>> >> > users might have unique concerns they'd want to
> discuss with each
> >> >>>> >> > other. But to my knowledge such a division has not been formed.
> >> >>>> >> > I
> >> >>>> >> > would love to see a division for blind people with
> mental health
> >> >>>> >> > conditions. This is a huge segment of our population, and there
> >> >>>> >> > are
> >> >>>> >> > probably unique concerns there. I am not sure if such divisions
> >> >>>> >> > don't
> >> >>>> >> > exist because the national leadership opposes them or if there
> >> >>>> >> > just
> >> >>>> >> > hasn't been enough interest or momentum to get them going. But I
> >> >>>> >> > think
> >> >>>> >> > having such divisions could help folks who have additional
> >> >>>> >> > disabilities obtain leadership positions within the
> organization,
> >> >>>> >> > and
> >> >>>> >> > also to provide a vehicle for collective action and education
> >> >>>> >> > about
> >> >>>> >> > issues affecting these groups specifically, even if the NFB as a
> >> >>>> >> > whole
> >> >>>> >> > should just focus on blindness. I hope that makes sense. I would
> >> >>>> >> > be
> >> >>>> >> > interested in other suggestions from you about how members with
> >> >>>> >> > multiple disabilities can feel more valued. While there is
> >> >>>> >> > something
> >> >>>> >> > to be said for going ahead and running for leadership
> positions in
> >> >>>> >> > order to change things, change also needs to come from the
> >> >>>> >> > organization as a whole if folks with multiple disabilities are
> >> >>>> >> > going
> >> >>>> >> > to be elected and welcomed in these positions.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Best,
> >> >>>> >> > Arielle
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > On 3/31/14, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> >> >>>> >> > Joe and others,
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > It is not my position that anything said about the NFB that is
> >> >>>> >> > negative is wrong. Organizations are made up of human
> beings and
> >> >>>> >> > we
> >> >>>> >> > are not perfect so our creations are not likely going
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > be perfect. Still, some of what one
> >> >>>> >> > person may seem as wrong isn't so much a matter of
> right or wrong
> >> >>>> >> > as
> >> >>>> >> > perspective and opinion. We embarked a good while
> back now on an
> >> >>>> >> > expansion that has resulted in the need to raise
> more funds than
> >> >>>> >> > we
> >> >>>> >> > used to have to raise. I do not think I am alone among NFB
> >> >>>> >> > supporters in recognizing that this is a risk. When
> you look at
> >> >>>> >> > our
> >> >>>> >> > budget and that of the ACB and then compare
> legislative successes
> >> >>>> >> > as
> >> >>>> >> > you did, Joe, it is certainly clear that
> legislative successes
> >> >>>> >> > are
> >> >>>> >> > not proportional to one's budget. Whether I completely agree
> >> >>>> >> > with
> >> >>>> >> > legislation ACB passes or not, I recognize that the
> ACB has made
> >> >>>> >> > contributions. However, I have felt for some time and I feel
> >> >>>> >> > particularly more so now that our problems can't be solved by
> >> >>>> >> > legislation alone. Let's take accessibility, for
> example. There
> >> >>>> >> > is
> >> >>>> >> > a lot of emphasis on getting more legislation passed that will
> >> >>>> >> > force
> >> >>>> >> > software to be accessible, for example. I happen to
> believe this
> >> >>>> >> > is
> >> >>>> >> > necessary, but it isn't going to make everything better for us,
> >> >>>> >> > particularly on the job, all by itself.
> >> >>>> >> > If we are going to make any serious gains, we need to
> understand
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > limits of current technology and explore ways of getting
> >> >>>> >> > information
> >> >>>> >> > that is new. I am not one who got all excited about being able
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > drive a car, although I certainly hope that blind people can do
> >> >>>> >> > that
> >> >>>> >> > at some point.
> >> >>>> >> > However, I
> >> >>>> >> > got
> >> >>>> >> > very excited about the fact that as a result of looking at the
> >> >>>> >> > problem, we experimented with a number of ways of getting
> >> >>>> >> > information
> >> >>>> >> > that had not been explored before. A significant
> portion of our
> >> >>>> >> > budget went into the KNFB reader. At the time, it
> was something
> >> >>>> >> > nobody was doing, and it was a moving experience when
> I held up a
> >> >>>> >> > KNFB
> >> >>>> >> > reader to the lists of registered people at a
> national convention
> >> >>>> >> > that were just hanging from a crossbar and have
> it start to read
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > content. There have probably been over a thousand
> kids who have
> >> >>>> >> > attended science camps of one kind or another through our
> >> >>>> >> > efforts.
> >> >>>> >> > We have been able to sponsor other gatherings as well for blind
> >> >>>> >> > lawyers, teachers, and major players in the
> technology field. We
> >> >>>> >> > couldn't have done any of this in the 80's or 90's, and much of
> >> >>>> >> > this
> >> >>>> >> > would not have been done even now if we hadn't tried it.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > So what's my point, I'm not saying anything new, you know all
> >> >>>> >> > this.
> >> >>>> >> > My point is that a lot of this is about risks and perspectives.
> >> >>>> >> > We
> >> >>>> >> > won't know for a long time if some of these efforts will make a
> >> >>>> >> > difference.
> >> >>>> >> > Frankly,
> >> >>>> >> > I am a believer that one learns almost as much from
> what doesn't
> >> >>>> >> > work
> >> >>>> >> > as one learns from what does, because if you make
> a mistake you
> >> >>>> >> > can
> >> >>>> >> > eliminate or refine that approach. Will some of those thousand
> >> >>>> >> > kids
> >> >>>> >> > get into math or science because of what we did? Is the OCR in
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > new HIMS product a little better because of what we
> did with the
> >> >>>> >> > KNFB
> >> >>>> >>reader?
> >> >>>> >> > Will we see a really good reader on the iPhone? Might
> we ever see
> >> >>>> >> > a
> >> >>>> >> > reader that could use artificial intelligence to interpret
> >> >>>> >> > software
> >> >>>> >> > on a computer screen instead of having
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > educate every person who writes
> >> >>>> >> > software? Will some of our efforts mean that there might be a
> >> >>>> >> > way
> >> >>>> >> > for us
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > control the Google self-driving cars
> >> >>>> >> > because of some of the work we did on our own car? I hope that
> >> >>>> >> > at
> >> >>>> >> > least some of the answers are yes, but at this point I can't
> >> >>>> >> > really
> >> >>>> >> > say. What I do know is that the smaller dynamic grass roots
> >> >>>> >> > organization that we were in the 80's couldn't have
> had any affect
> >> >>>> >> > on
> >> >>>> >> > some of what I've listed above, nor was it the right time for
> >> >>>> >> > that.
> >> >>>> >> > But it also means that we change.
> >> >>>> >> > Not only do we change, but we make mistakes as we adjust to
> >> >>>> >> > change.
> >> >>>> >> > Joe, what you see as a downward spiral, I see as the challenges
> >> >>>> >> > of
> >> >>>> >> > change. I'm not satisfied to say that it has to be that way,
> >> >>>> >> > though. We can and must learn how to do better, as
> individuals and
> >> >>>> >> > as
> >> >>>> >> > an organization.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Joe, I think you are right that getting training at one of our
> >> >>>> >> > centers won't miraculously make life better, and the marketing
> >> >>>> >> > does
> >> >>>> >> > sometimes imply that. However, you are wrong to
> draw conclusions
> >> >>>> >> > about such training based upon the marketing. Discussing and
> >> >>>> >> > exploring the uncertainties and challenges of seeking
> employment as
> >> >>>> >> > a
> >> >>>> >> > blind person is a big part of what is addressed at BLIND
> >> >>>> >> > Incorporated
> >> >>>> >> > here in Minnesota and I assume by our other
> centers. Some of the
> >> >>>> >> > point of such training is to encourage the idea that you have to
> >> >>>> >> > have
> >> >>>> >> > a set of tools to approach a given situation and not just one
> >> >>>> >> > tool.
> >> >>>> >> > Still, we have to do more than run people through training.
> >> >>>> >> > This is true of any single aspectof our challenges, though.
> >> >>>> >> > Legislating
> >> >>>> >> > that software must be accessible and that one cannot
> >> >>>> >> > discriminate
> >> >>>> >> > based upon a disability was and is still needed, but it won't
> >> >>>> >> > matter
> >> >>>> >> > much if we don't have training. Legislation and even training
> >> >>>> >> > won't
> >> >>>> >> > matter all that much if we don't get a good basic education.
> >> >>>> >> > Requiring that school districts teach braille won't fix that
> >> >>>> >> > problem
> >> >>>> >> > if there are no braille instructors in a given area. You can't
> >> >>>> >> > pick
> >> >>>> >> > any one thing out and say that it can lead to success
> by itself,
> >> >>>> >> > and
> >> >>>> >> > you can't see any given issue as completely standing
> on its own.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I feel that we are in a better position as an organization to
> >> >>>> >> > impact
> >> >>>> >> > the complex challenges we face with a larger budget
> than we were.
> >> >>>> >> > However, it is more important than ever that we understand where
> >> >>>> >> > we
> >> >>>> >> > are going and how our philosophy fits in. The question of what
> >> >>>> >> > can
> >> >>>> >> > we change to address the challenges of the world and what do we
> >> >>>> >> > need
> >> >>>> >> > the world to change is more important than ever, and I don't see
> >> >>>> >> > anyone asking questions like that outside of
> this organization.
> >> >>>> >> > With our strengths and our failings, I think our
> understanding of
> >> >>>> >> > asking for help and looking for our own solutions is
> what has set
> >> >>>> >> > us
> >> >>>> >> > apart in my mind, and while it is risky, I think that branching
> >> >>>> >> > out
> >> >>>> >> > is a risk worth taking to try to have a wider impact. We need
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > help of all members, though, to handle change.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Best regards,
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Steve Jacobson
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > On Sun, 30 Mar 2014 12:57:22 -0600, Jamie Principato wrote:
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Arielle,
> >> >>>> >> > That was a very thoughtful and politically sensitive response.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Joe,
> >> >>>> >> > I am pleased to see I am not alone in making these observations
> >> >>>> >> > furring my own relationship with the NFB. while
> I deeply respect
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > organization's history and truly appreciate the
> raw potential the
> >> >>>> >> > organization has moving forward, the passion I joined
> with back in
> >> >>>> >> > high school has turned to cautious cynicism. I don't think this
> >> >>>> >> > perspective is bad, though. I think the NFB desperately needs
> >> >>>> >> > members
> >> >>>> >> > who can see past the smoke and mirrors of PR, and
> who are willing
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > discuss issues of blindness and politics in a
> no-nonsense way that
> >> >>>> >> > isn't always easy to hear. It is a shame though when
> those of us
> >> >>>> >> > less
> >> >>>> >> > willing to toe the line and pander to those with
> political power
> >> >>>> >> > are treated with hostility by some at the national
> level, and more
> >> >>>> >> > still within our local chapters.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > On Mar 30, 2014, at 12:00 PM, Arielle Silverman
> >> >>>> >> > <arielle71 at gmail.com
> >> >>>> >> > wrote:
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Hi Joe,
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Thanks for sharing your experiences. I have not been following
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > Braille Monitor that closely but I can understand what you are
> >> >>>> >> > saying
> >> >>>> >> > about the increased emphasis on fund-raising. I have also felt
> >> >>>> >> > like
> >> >>>> >> > the national convention is turning into more of a carnival with
> >> >>>> >> > all
> >> >>>> >> > the exhibitors and prizes being given away, and much of banquet
> >> >>>> >> > that
> >> >>>> >> > used to focus on philosophy and NFB spirit is now taken up with
> >> >>>> >> > prize
> >> >>>> >> > drawings and the like.
> >> >>>> >> > To be fair, NFB was stronger financially when we joined than it
> >> >>>> >> > is
> >> >>>> >> > now, and I understand that some national programs have
> been cut due
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > a decrease in revenue from what used to be steady
> reliable income
> >> >>>> >>sources.
> >> >>>> >> > So
> >> >>>> >> > NFB may be pushing fund-raising more, but the
> alternative could be
> >> >>>> >> > a
> >> >>>> >> > loss of programs and resources.
> >> >>>> >> > I have not heard of anyone being blatantly turned
> away or refused
> >> >>>> >> > membership in an NFB chapter. If that ever happens it is truly
> >> >>>> >> > shameful. I do think that sometimes prospective
> members choose not
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > join because they perceive hostility from the organization or
> >> >>>> >> > judgment
> >> >>>> >> > of their lifestyle choices. I think part of that is perception
> >> >>>> >> > only,
> >> >>>> >> > and part of it is reality. The NFB is stereotyped as a radical
> >> >>>> >> > one-size-fits-all organization, and new members
> expecting to find
> >> >>>> >> > that
> >> >>>> >> > could be especially sensitive to cues of hostility.
> However, there
> >> >>>> >> > probably is some real lack of acceptance among certain
> segments of
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > organization, which, again, is unfortunate. I will say that I am
> >> >>>> >> > not
> >> >>>> >> > the most graceful blind person and was relatively
> unskilled when I
> >> >>>> >> > first joined, and I still felt completely accepted.
> But I know not
> >> >>>> >> > all
> >> >>>> >> > of us are so lucky. I would encourage prospective
> members who have
> >> >>>> >> > a
> >> >>>> >> > negative experience to try again in a different chapter or
> >> >>>> >> > division
> >> >>>> >> > and perhaps they will find acceptance there.
> >> >>>> >> > But at the same time, this is something we need to be
> sensitive to
> >> >>>> >> > in
> >> >>>> >> > the organization.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Arielle
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > On 3/30/14, Michael Capelle <michael.capelle at frontier.com>
> >> >>>> >> > wrote:
> >> >>>> >> > Hello all.
> >> >>>> >> > This is why I am not apart of any "blind movement." I live my
> >> >>>> >> > own
> >> >>>> >> > life, live my own philosophy, ETC. I do not believe
> in a one size
> >> >>>> >> > fits all mentality, which is unfurtunately what the NFB does.
> >> >>>> >> > Thanks.
> >> >>>> >> > Mike
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> >>>> >> > From: RJ Sandefur
> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 11:51 AM
> >> >>>> >> > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students
> >> >>>> >> > mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Joe, I agree with you. I had to attend both college,
> and Seminary
> >> >>>> >> > without the NFB's help, although it would have been
> nice to have a
> >> >>>> >>mentoor.
> >> >>>> >> > RJ
> >> >>>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> >>>> >> > From: "Joe" <jsoro620 at gmail.com
> >> >>>> >> > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> >> >>>> >> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2014 12:25 PM
> >> >>>> >> > Subject: [nabs-l] Success and Why I Left the NFB
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > 2006 was the last year I attended a national convention. While
> >> >>>> >> > there
> >> >>>> >> > I was caught up in the ra ra of the movement and felt
> glad to be
> >> >>>> >> > in
> >> >>>> >> > the company
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > of
> >> >>>> >> > so many people who could relate to the challenges
> that awaited me
> >> >>>> >> > as
> >> >>>> >> > a recent college graduate. I left convention, finished
> up my summer
> >> >>>> >> > as
> >> >>>> >> > a counselor in Iowa, and set off for DC to begin my
> business with
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > real world. I would never take away someone's enthusiasm from
> >> >>>> >> > attending a national convention or Washington Seminar or one of
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > weekend leadership seminars in Baltimore. They are very
> >> >>>> >> > well-suited
> >> >>>> >> > to boost a person's spirit, but I believe too many people fall
> >> >>>> >> > through the cracks when faced with reality outside of those
> >> >>>> >> > infrequent
> >> >>>> >>gatherings.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > To be fair, the organization is no different from any other
> >> >>>> >> > nonprofit business. It needs money to sustain itself,
> and in turn
> >> >>>> >> > it
> >> >>>> >> > needs more members to help raise the money. Still, I found it
> >> >>>> >> > rather
> >> >>>> >> > disappointing that so much of the board meeting I tuned into
> >> >>>> >> > listen
> >> >>>> >> > to last summer was dominated by calls to raise money
> for this fund
> >> >>>> >> > or
> >> >>>> >> > that
> >> >>>> >>effort.
> >> >>>> >> > I
> >> >>>> >> > found
> >> >>>> >> > it
> >> >>>> >> > even sadder that a recent issue of the Braille Monitor, our
> >> >>>> >> > monthly
> >> >>>> >> > dose of inspiration, featured several articles just
> to the focus
> >> >>>> >> > of
> >> >>>> >> > generating more ways to drum up more financial support, but
> >> >>>> >> > perhaps
> >> >>>> >> > the most frustrating byproduct of this new NFB are the e-mails
> >> >>>> >> > from
> >> >>>> >> > so-called friends from whom
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I
> >> >>>> >> > have not heard in years but boldly ask me to
> contribute to their
> >> >>>> >> > NFB
> >> >>>> >> > fundraising campaigns.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > In short, at some point the NFB embraced enterprise and forgot
> >> >>>> >> > about
> >> >>>> >> > the movement. Between 2006 and 2012 I went on to help lead
> >> >>>> >> > development
> >> >>>> >> > efforts for other nonprofits outside of the blindness
> field, also
> >> >>>> >> > national in scope.
> >> >>>> >> > They too made fundraising a priority, but it never
> felt like the
> >> >>>> >> > top, or the only, priority. It gets tiresome when we focus on
> >> >>>> >> > recruiting new blood and raising new money and forget about
> >> >>>> >> > strengthening the members and resources we've already had.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Nowadays I have the privilege of knowing some excellent blind
> >> >>>> >> > professionals.
> >> >>>> >> > I think they would do well in the NFB. They are smarter than I
> >> >>>> >> > ever
> >> >>>> >> > will be and have accomplished more than I may ever achieve, but
> >> >>>> >> > they
> >> >>>> >> > shun the organization because they were turned away or because
> >> >>>> >> > they
> >> >>>> >> > were never welcomed in the first place. It's something I should
> >> >>>> >> > have
> >> >>>> >> > kept in mind when I had my brief taste of leadership in the
> >> >>>> >> > organization. I had too much of
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > a
> >> >>>> >> > mouth on me to ever be anyone's golden child, but I
> was reliable
> >> >>>> >> > enough to get the job done. But, getting the job done
> should have
> >> >>>> >> > really meant attracting and pulling in these men and women who
> >> >>>> >> > could
> >> >>>> >> > have made the NFB lots better, listening to new
> ideas, and most
> >> >>>> >> > important, remaining true to the cause and not some
> >> >>>> >> > multi-million-dollar institute we find ourselves incapable of
> >> >>>> >> > sustaining.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > So, what does any of this have to do with the original post? I
> >> >>>> >> > don't
> >> >>>> >> > want
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > it
> >> >>>> >> > to ever be said I was a hypocrite. The leadership may as well
> >> >>>> >> > know
> >> >>>> >> > what I think of them, but more importantly, to the
> college kids on
> >> >>>> >> > the
> >> >>>> >> > verge of spreading their own wings, I want you to know the NFB
> >> >>>> >> > banner
> >> >>>> >> > will only guide your way so far. Take what's great about the
> >> >>>> >> > organization and leave the political drama and marketing ploys
> >> >>>> >> > behind. In the end it will be your own wits and
> talents that will
> >> >>>> >> > earn your pay check. The NFB will never give you anything new.
> >> >>>> >> > The
> >> >>>> >> > philosophy merely helps you uncover what you always had
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > be successful. Anything could happen with the new NFB
> president,
> >> >>>> >> > and
> >> >>>> >> > I will be the first to retract my words if he is
> brave enough to
> >> >>>> >> > reverse this downward spiral. You see, we no longer live in a
> >> >>>> >> > world
> >> >>>> >> > where the NFB is necessary for collective momentum. Technology
> >> >>>> >> > has
> >> >>>> >> > seen
> >> >>>> >>to that.
> >> >>>> >> > Whether
> >> >>>> >> > or
> >> >>>> >> > not the movement sticks around largely depends on how badly we
> >> >>>> >> > want
> >> >>>> >> > it to exist.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Is the ACB doing it any better? That's debatable, but you know
> >> >>>> >> > what
> >> >>>> >> > I've found from the people I've met on that side of the house?
> >> >>>> >> > They
> >> >>>> >> > seem happier, and that's something we can't seem to
> figure out in
> >> >>>> >> > our
> >> >>>> >>camp.
> >> >>>> >> > The
> >> >>>> >> > few
> >> >>>> >> > victories they celebrate they do with even less
> money. Let that be
> >> >>>> >> > a
> >> >>>> >> > lesson in financial management to you.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > I don't know what the hell I'm doing back here. I told myself I
> >> >>>> >> > would never become one of those bitter former NFB members. My
> >> >>>> >> > only
> >> >>>> >> > goal was to provide different perspectives to the new
> generation
> >> >>>> >> > of
> >> >>>> >> > leaders coming up through the ranks. After all, if you never
> >> >>>> >> > taste
> >> >>>> >> > the real world, you have no business leading. That's like the
> >> >>>> >> > teacher
> >> >>>> >> > who teaches because they couldn't cut it, and believe
> it or not,
> >> >>>> >> > I
> >> >>>> >> > want to see more and more of you excel at whatever it
> is you want
> >> >>>> >> > to
> >> >>>> >> > do. The more of you there are, the greater our strength.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Moving forward I reckon I'll keep my opinions to
> myself here lest
> >> >>>> >> > I
> >> >>>> >> > be the rotten apple that spoils the bunch, but in some lame
> >> >>>> >> > attempt
> >> >>>> >> > to answer the original question, my answer would be this:
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > The characteristics of a successful blind person are
> humility to
> >> >>>> >> > consume what they need to be successful, fortitude to turn away
> >> >>>> >> > what
> >> >>>> >> > will not, and wisdom to recognize the difference.
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Joe
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > --
> >> >>>> >> > Twitter: @ScribblingJoe
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > Visit my blog:
> >> >>>> >> > http://joeorozco.com/blog
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info
> >> >>>> >> > for
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksa
> >> >>>> >> > ndefur%40gmail.com
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info
> >> >>>> >> > for
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/michael.capel
> >> >>>> >> > le%40frontier.com
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info
> >> >>>> >> > for
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40g
> >> >>>> >> > mail.com
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info
> >> >>>> >> > for
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%
> >> >>>> >> > 40gmail.com
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info
> >> >>>> >> > for
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l:
> >> >>>> >> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobso
> >> >>>> >> > n%40visi.com
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> >
> >> >>>> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> >>>> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >>>> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
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