[nabs-l] NABS List Manners
Mary Fernandez
trillian551 at gmail.com
Mon Aug 18 16:45:54 UTC 2014
I'm doing pretty good. A bit crazy at work, we just had trial last
week, my last trial before leaving the profession you know... We have
another few hours on the 26ths. And I'm also planning my next steps
moving out, seeing where I'm going next, and such. You may be one of
the few people who haven't heard yet, but I'm leaving BGL on the 26th
of next month. I told Dan and I'm getting all kinds of randoms saying,
oh, I heard you left, or are leaving etc... That man rivals the NY
Times...
You are a positive globe trotter. How was your Nicaragua experience?
What was most striking to you? Most fun? Least fun? Did you wind up
going to Costa Rica too?
Any why all the state side travel if I may be so nosy?
Anyway, best to you.
And lets seriously get this call done asap. Just a heads up, I won't
be moderating for much longer, you need to find someone new, and
preferably two people to help keep up with all the traffic.
Mary F
On 8/18/14, Sean Whalen via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Thank you for writing this!
>
> Sean
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
> Silverman via nabs-l
> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 1:46 PM
> To: Robin; National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>
> Hi all,
>
> I want to start by summarizing how the list moderators and administrator
> currently handle things. If somebody is being disrespectful or posting
> content that's inappropriate for the list, they are typically warned first.
> If the behavior continues, the individual may be placed on "moderated
> status" in which Dave Andrews or another list admin must approve everything
> that person posts before it appears on list. This is usually done only for
> a
> month or two as it creates a huge burden of work for the admins. In extreme
> cases, offending individuals are banned from the list. I know Dave does not
> like to do this often, and if somebody is very determined, it is not hard
> to
> create a new email address and re-join. So there is only so much the
> moderators can do and there is really very little that moderators can do to
> stop off-list communications.
> I think that whenever someone joins a public email list, they incur a risk
> of being sent unsolicited emails off-list. That is just a risk we all take.
> It is important to take precautions so that email harassment, which is
> relatively harmless, doesn't turn into something more serious. For example,
> it is wise to avoid disclosing your phone number or any secure information,
> like your birthdate, on list or to anyone you don't know and feel
> comfortable with. This is especially important for list members under 18.
> But honestly, the best defense against annoying or harassing emails is just
> to ask the person to stop and then delete or ignore any further
> communications. In my 15 years of listserv activity, I've received my fair
> share of unwanted emails and Facebook flirtations, and simply ignoring them
> was always an adequate solution.
>
> Best,
> Arielle
>
> On 8/16/14, Robin via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I suggest people, who have been contacted OffList, and were offended
>> by what they perceived as "inappropriate" send and/or forward those
>> EMAILS to the NABS List Moderator(s), and they can take whatever
>> action they deem appropriate.
>>
>> Personally, I think there is a distinction between people, who contact
>> others OffList, with what is perceived as "inappropriate" and those
>> who contact people OffList with "invitations" to
>> FaceBook/Linkedin-Twitter or some other type of Social Networking
>> site. This is only my humble opinion.
>>
>> I also suggest ideas of "policing" the NABS List be taken OffList as
>> well, and when the NABS List Moderator(s) have made their decision on
>> how to rectify this situation so as not to have it occur in the future
>> or reduce the likelihood that it will occur in the future, they then
>> send their decision/recommendation to the NABS List.
>>
>> At 09:09 AM 8/16/2014, you wrote:
>>>Also, just because the guy harassed Helga off-list and she replied
>>>on-list, that doesn't take him out of the wrong or shift the blame for
>>>what he did onto her. That was precisely why I expressed a desire to
>>>have something put in place to avoid off-list issues like that,
>>>because it is a problem. For all I know guys might not get the creepy
>>>emails from repeat offenders and might not even have realized it was
>>>happening, but that doesn't mean that since it isn't a problem for
>>>you, it isn't a problem for others. Delete what you don't want to see
>>>is all well and good for things like self promos which are harmless,
>>>but when they cross a line we need to do something about them. Same
>>>for blocking. Individuals can block the creepy email senders all they
>>>want, but the person behind the issue isn't going to stop finding new
>>>people to try sending stuff to unless there are consequences for them.
>>>
>>>Furthermore, this is a perfect example of handling disagreement. If
>>>you don't think this is an issue that needs policing or don't like the
>>>suggestions others have proffered, you can choose whether or not to
>>>get involved in the thread. You are certainly free to have your
>>>oppinions, but I took your last message as a negative slam of sorts
>>>against people who feel there are major issues with conduct on the
>>>list, and the suggestions they are just kicking around to see what
>>>might come of them. Perhaps I read it the wrong way since we're
>>>working through text alone here, but that's just the vibe I got. Case
>>>and point why such an internet etiquette forum or something might be
>>>useful, as tone in text verses spoken word was one of the proposed
>>>topics for such a talk. Maybe it would only attract those who are
>>>already cognicent of courtesy on the list, but obviously both of us
>>>cared enough to jump in on this thread and got very different ideas of
>>>how the previous posts were intended to sound.
>>>
>>>On 8/16/14, Karl Martin Adam via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> > I really don't think that "just delete what you don't want" is a
>>> > sufficient response to women being sexually harassed by guys doing
>>> > things like trying to trade tech help for a bra size. It is our
>>> > responsibility as members of this list and the responsibility of
>>> > the moderators to ensure that this is a safe place where people can
>>> > post without being harassed. Maybe we can't get rid of this sort
>>> > of thing completely, but that's no reason to tolerate this when
>>> > it's brought to our attention.
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Littlefield, Tyler via nabs-l" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > To: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>, National
>>> > Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date
>>> > sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 00:21:45 -0400
>>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>> >
>>> > Hello:
>>> > I think this thread has gone on way to long. Firstly, the guy asked
>>> > her bra size off list and she replied on list. Maybe it was not
>>> > appropriate, but welcome to the internets in 2014. Just delete what
>>> > you don't want.
>>> >
>>> > Second, you're talking about these emails for social networks like
>>> > it's a huge issue. Maybe there are a few guys out there friending
>>> > any girl with an email address, but usually what happens is they
>>> > reply, then they say "here Facebook have my address book" and bam,
>>> > everyone gets invitations. whether or not the person ment to send
>>> > them.
>>> >
>>> > I don't know that holding confirence calls really is the way to go,
>>> > just send out rule reminders every month and if there's a problem,
>>> > just send it off to the admins to deal with as they see fit.
>>> > Confirence calls, classes, talks, required agreements and the like
>>> > are just going to be ignored by those who don't care and
>>> > acknowledged for those who already acknowledge them. Forcing
>>> > someone to say "I agree" to the rules is just forcing them to go
>>> > through another step to register and they can still say "hey, I
>>> > didn't read those rules." This also ends up taking a bit of extra
>>> > work to embed in mailman, as I don't think it has this option. You
>>> > do have the option of sending out monthly emails or welcome
>>> > letters, at which point you could include rules, then failure to
>>> > follow them can be the same results as not following the rules you
>>> > have to click a button to agree, whatever that may be.
>>> >
>>> > I think this is getting blown out of perportion. There are spats on
>>> > and off list, but if you really have a problem with someone just
>>> > block them or hit delete on their messages.
>>> > On 8/16/2014 12:10 AM, Kaiti Shelton via nabs-l wrote:
>>> > It would also be great if somehow, we could address the issue of
>>> > people taking advantage of the fact that other list members can't
>>> > necessarily be anonymous and hide their emails to avoid unwanted
>>> > attention off-list. I know policing such matters is impractical,
>>> > but it is also kind of weird to have NABS members who I don't know
>>> > practically stalking me because they want me to follow them back on
>>> > Twitter, want to be a friend on facebook, want to be a connection
>>> > or in my circle on Linked In or Google Plus, etc, plus send random
>>> > emails to my address asking sometimes really odd questions. I
>>> > think people would be less likely to jump the gun when
>>> > inappropriate behavior happens on list and more apt to handle it
>>> > appropriately if things like this didn't happen, as I know they
>>> > happen to a fair number of people on the list. Would it be too
>>> > much to put a guideline in which says something about how
>>> > permission should be gained before sending a messages of a
>>> > personal nature off list, or please don't friend someone on other
>>> > social media outlets unless there is a mutual desire to be
>>> > friends? Or, perhaps in addition to internet etiquette guidelines,
>>> > there be some basic social guidelines in case some of this behavior
>>> > is due to a lack of social supports outside of the internet, and
>>> > the person for whatever reasons needs a bit of guidance in how to
>>> > properly correspond with others so as not to come off overbearing.
>>> >
>>> > The bigger question is, how could this realistically be done
>>> > without severely limiting intellectual conversation. Over the
>>> > last few years I've gotten some very nice emails from people who
>>> > wanted to respond to something I said privately, to give an honest
>>> > opinion that they were too shy to put on the list for the very
>>> > reason that they thought they would meet resistance or
>>> > disapproval, or people who noticed things like my major and were
>>> > curious for information. I wouldn't want to stifle any of these
>>> > things and have actually made some good friends through some of
>>> > these conversations which happened thanks to the NABS list, but it
>>> > is a little weird, annoying, and a bit creepy, when some random
>>> > guy won't stop sending me reminders to add him on different social
>>> > media outlets, especially when they're ones I don't check or
>>> > didn't really care to learn how to use after deciding I really
>>> > didn't need the account, and they won't get the hint that I'm
>>> > either not checking my account, am only still receiving their
>>> > invitations because I haven't figured out how to block them on a
>>> > site I never use, or am not interested in adding a stranger to see
>>> > my personal information. I think that is a huge problem we have
>>> > with the list, and especially puts a lot of the girls on here into
>>> > a tricky spot because since this is all electronic, to engage by
>>> > telling the person to leave you alone gives them what they want.
>>> > I used the delete key a lot for dealing with these kinds of
>>> > messages, but found with some the emails just keep coming even
>>> > after 2 years of membership on the list.
>>> >
>>> > On 8/15/14, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > I like Jedi's idea of having a conference call on internet
>>> > etiquette, but my concern is that only those who abide by the
>>> > rules already will care to show up. It could be very effective,
>>> > but my gut just tells me that it would be like preaching to the
>>> > choir. Unfortunately, calling individuals out who have
>>> > consistently demonstrated some of the negative or disrespectful
>>> > behaviors we've mentioned on this thread is probably not the way
>>> > to go either, unless done so by list moderators like Mary and
>>> > Dave.
>>> >
>>> > I still think policing is the best way to go about this, but it
>>> > would be up to the moderators, and could be a huge undertaking. I
>>> > like the idea of having the rules set up on a screen after
>>> > subscribers complete the initial form, and am a huge fan of using
>>> > I agree or I don't Agree buttons to finish the subscription
>>> > process if it is feasible. I think that would make it much harder
>>> > for people to just say they were ignorant of the rules because
>>> > they never cared to look for them.
>>> > Sure, people will skim through it and not read, but at least we
>>> > can say that they broke the rules at their own disgression and had
>>> > an equal opportunity to read them. Granted, I'm of the opinion
>>> > that when you join a list it's your responsibility to use common
>>> > etiquette and/or educate yourself on the rules and therefore we're
>>> > already all equal here anyway, but obviously not everyone on the
>>> > list operates that way and that's why we're having this problem to
>>> > begin with.
>>> >
>>> > Arielle gave some great advice about when to just let a thread go
>>> > and to not respond, and I echo some of Antonio's sentiments about
>>> > deleting a lot of what doesn't interest you. Some of the personal
>>> > promotion stuff is annoying, but not harmful, and while I don't
>>> > necessarily read what the promos say, I respect what the person
>>> > making them is doing and their right to do it on a forum such as
>>> > NABS. After all, if you're doing something geared toward blind
>>> > teens and young adults, it's logical to use NABS as a sounding
>>> > board to gather interested parties.
>>> >
>>> > There's a great quote from Thumper, the bunny in Bambi, which I
>>> > believe goes something like, "If you don't got nothing nice to say,
>>> > don't say it." I think most of the list members do well and abide
>>> > by this, but the people who provide the put-downs, consistently
>>> > respond negatively to other's comments, and who send inappropriate
>>> > emails on list (and off by getting member emails and emailing to
>>> > continue the inappropriate behaviors they start for all to see),
>>> > are mostly repeat offenders who have left clear patterns of
>>> > behavior behind in their emails. I'm not saying we should jump
>>> > the gun and kick those people off, but we definitely know where to
>>> > start and who to keep an eye on for these problems based on the
>>> > past, if only we had a method for doing so.
>>> >
>>> > On 8/15/14, Sami Osborne via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> > Hi all,
>>> >
>>> > I agree with everything that's been said so far.
>>> >
>>> > I think that the guidelines should maybe be posted here more
>>> > often, maybe not once every month but more than maybe once every
>>> > 6 months. The reason I'm saying this is because since I've
>>> > registered to this list, the guidelines have only been posted
>>> > once. I think this would be a great way for everybody to be aware
>>> > of the rules and think about what they've done if they have caused
>>> > trouble on here.
>>> > Also, another suggestion is that when people register, after they
>>> > submit their email address, name and password, why couldn't the
>>> > guidelines be displayed, with buttons or links for the person
>>> > would have to click on to agree or disagree? Note: if they
>>> > accidentally click "disagree," then they could be given a second
>>> > chance to click "agree," and if for the second time they click on
>>> > "agree," then their subscription will not be taken.
>>> >
>>> > About discussing opinions: I think that these kinds of
>>> > discussions are fine as long as people are not personally
>>> > insulting or attacking each other. In my opinion, if there is a
>>> > discussion going on where two people have differing opinions and
>>> > talk about their views, if it gets to the point where it starts to
>>> > get bad, these people should stop discussing their opinions.
>>> >
>>> > These are just my thoughts.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Sami.
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: Arielle Silverman via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > To: Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com>,National
>>> > Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date
>>> > sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:32:02 -0700
>>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>> >
>>> > I agree with greater enforcement. I also think it would be nice
>>> > if folks didn't respond to inappropriate messages on list. A
>>> > single off-topic or obnoxious message often goes unnoticed but a
>>> > huge thread of replies clutters inboxes and annoys people, plus
>>> > rewarding someone who might be making an obnoxious post to glean
>>> > attention. If a post bothers you, I suggest quietly emailing
>>> > Mary and Dave Andrews so they can handle the offense and then
>>> > quietly letting it go. If you aren't sure whether a message you
>>> > see is inappropriate, ask the moderators privately. These are
>>> > just my suggestions.
>>> > Arielle
>>> >
>>> > On 8/14/14, Antonio Guimaraes via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > wrote:
>>> > Mary and all,
>>> >
>>> > This is not the first time list etiquette and civility has been
>>> > brought up.
>>> >
>>> > People would think twice, or otherwise no longer have the
>>> > opportunity to be
>>> > inappropriate on list if there was enforcement of guidelines
>>> > which suspended
>>> > or banned people from list for violations.
>>> >
>>> > I have been threatened once for one spam sent to NFBNet lists,
>>> > and I never
>>> > did it again. The specifics do not concern the NABS list and
>>> > are not
>>> > relevant to the discussion at this time, but you bet I could
>>> > have been
>>> > banned by moderators, and as stated above, would no longer have
>>> > the chance
>>> > to polite the list in whatever way deemed inappropriate by the
>>> > moderators.
>>> >
>>> > Some off topic messages to NABS irk me, but are infrequent
>>> > enough that they
>>> > don't bother me. I don't complain, hit delete ad move on.
>>> >
>>> > One much example are the periodic announcements from David about
>>> > internet
>>> > radio. It takes me a few seconds to see the topic and decide
>>> > the
>>> > announcement does not interest me. I delete, and move on with
>>> > no stress. I'm
>>> > sure David's programs are interesting to some, and I accept a
>>> > member's
>>> > self-promotion as a part of the supportive NABS community.
>>> >
>>> > I am not as tolerant of messages with personal information about
>>> > others, or
>>> > messages filled with self-disclosure on very personal and
>>> > sensitive topics.
>>> >
>>> > We would be a better list if we were expected to act civilly,
>>> > stay on topic,
>>> > and so on, and be wormed, and disciplined when we do not.
>>> >
>>> > Antonio
>>> >
>>> > On Aug 10, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Mary Fernandez via nabs-l
>>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Good evening all,
>>> > I hope everyone's weekend was very enjoyable.
>>> > I am writing because I am deeply concerned about the manners, or
>>> > lack
>>> > thereof, which are more and more frequently being displayed on
>>> > the
>>> > list serv. I'll quickly remind you that the list is supposed to
>>> > be a
>>> > resource for blind students, of all ages, young professionals,
>>> > parents
>>> > and teachers. The list is "public" and "archivable", which
>>> > means that
>>> > anything we write on here is easily brought up when someone,
>>> > anyone,
>>> > conducts a Google search.
>>> > When someone inquires about software, or help with anything,
>>> > which
>>> > relates to blindness, or has a question and asks that you
>>> > contact them
>>> > off line, it does not mean that you can be disrespectful to that
>>> > person. The list is NOT here for insults to be thrown back and
>>> > forth,
>>> > for inappropriate comments, or for general disrespect towards
>>> > others.
>>> > So, here is my question, how can we improve communication among
>>> > list
>>> > members? Does this list still have value, and if so what are the
>>> > values and how to we maintain them? Let's have a discussion
>>> > about
>>> > issues and solutions. I'm probably opening a can of worms, but
>>> > I'm
>>> > truly concerned about the tone of the messages on here, and the
>>> > frequency with which they have been occurring. Please, be
>>> > polite and
>>> > respectful when responding to this message, and if you have
>>> > strong
>>> > feelings you do not wish to make public, simply click on my
>>> > email
>>> > address: trillian551 at gmail.com and reply to me directly.
>>> >
>>> > Thank you,
>>> > Sincerely,
>>> > Your list moderator,
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Mary Fernandez
>>> > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
>>> > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made
>>> > them
>>> > feel."
>>> > --
>>> > Maya Angelou
>>> >
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>>> >
>>> >
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>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Kaiti
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Take care,
>>> > Ty
>>> > http://tds-solutions.net
>>> > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
>>> > fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>> >
>>> >
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>>>
>>>--
>>>Kaiti
>>>
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--
Mary Fernandez
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them
feel."
--
Maya Angelou
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