[nabs-l] NABS List Manners
Mary Fernandez
trillian551 at gmail.com
Mon Aug 18 16:55:12 UTC 2014
All,
I apologize, the last message was meeant for one person and not the
entire list.
Thanks
Mary F
On 8/18/14, Mary Fernandez <trillian551 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm doing pretty good. A bit crazy at work, we just had trial last
> week, my last trial before leaving the profession you know... We have
> another few hours on the 26ths. And I'm also planning my next steps
> moving out, seeing where I'm going next, and such. You may be one of
> the few people who haven't heard yet, but I'm leaving BGL on the 26th
> of next month. I told Dan and I'm getting all kinds of randoms saying,
> oh, I heard you left, or are leaving etc... That man rivals the NY
> Times...
>
> You are a positive globe trotter. How was your Nicaragua experience?
> What was most striking to you? Most fun? Least fun? Did you wind up
> going to Costa Rica too?
> Any why all the state side travel if I may be so nosy?
> Anyway, best to you.
> And lets seriously get this call done asap. Just a heads up, I won't
> be moderating for much longer, you need to find someone new, and
> preferably two people to help keep up with all the traffic.
> Mary F
>
> On 8/18/14, Sean Whalen via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Thank you for writing this!
>>
>> Sean
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle
>> Silverman via nabs-l
>> Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2014 1:46 PM
>> To: Robin; National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I want to start by summarizing how the list moderators and administrator
>> currently handle things. If somebody is being disrespectful or posting
>> content that's inappropriate for the list, they are typically warned
>> first.
>> If the behavior continues, the individual may be placed on "moderated
>> status" in which Dave Andrews or another list admin must approve
>> everything
>> that person posts before it appears on list. This is usually done only
>> for
>> a
>> month or two as it creates a huge burden of work for the admins. In
>> extreme
>> cases, offending individuals are banned from the list. I know Dave does
>> not
>> like to do this often, and if somebody is very determined, it is not hard
>> to
>> create a new email address and re-join. So there is only so much the
>> moderators can do and there is really very little that moderators can do
>> to
>> stop off-list communications.
>> I think that whenever someone joins a public email list, they incur a
>> risk
>> of being sent unsolicited emails off-list. That is just a risk we all
>> take.
>> It is important to take precautions so that email harassment, which is
>> relatively harmless, doesn't turn into something more serious. For
>> example,
>> it is wise to avoid disclosing your phone number or any secure
>> information,
>> like your birthdate, on list or to anyone you don't know and feel
>> comfortable with. This is especially important for list members under 18.
>> But honestly, the best defense against annoying or harassing emails is
>> just
>> to ask the person to stop and then delete or ignore any further
>> communications. In my 15 years of listserv activity, I've received my
>> fair
>> share of unwanted emails and Facebook flirtations, and simply ignoring
>> them
>> was always an adequate solution.
>>
>> Best,
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 8/16/14, Robin via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> I suggest people, who have been contacted OffList, and were offended
>>> by what they perceived as "inappropriate" send and/or forward those
>>> EMAILS to the NABS List Moderator(s), and they can take whatever
>>> action they deem appropriate.
>>>
>>> Personally, I think there is a distinction between people, who contact
>>> others OffList, with what is perceived as "inappropriate" and those
>>> who contact people OffList with "invitations" to
>>> FaceBook/Linkedin-Twitter or some other type of Social Networking
>>> site. This is only my humble opinion.
>>>
>>> I also suggest ideas of "policing" the NABS List be taken OffList as
>>> well, and when the NABS List Moderator(s) have made their decision on
>>> how to rectify this situation so as not to have it occur in the future
>>> or reduce the likelihood that it will occur in the future, they then
>>> send their decision/recommendation to the NABS List.
>>>
>>> At 09:09 AM 8/16/2014, you wrote:
>>>>Also, just because the guy harassed Helga off-list and she replied
>>>>on-list, that doesn't take him out of the wrong or shift the blame for
>>>>what he did onto her. That was precisely why I expressed a desire to
>>>>have something put in place to avoid off-list issues like that,
>>>>because it is a problem. For all I know guys might not get the creepy
>>>>emails from repeat offenders and might not even have realized it was
>>>>happening, but that doesn't mean that since it isn't a problem for
>>>>you, it isn't a problem for others. Delete what you don't want to see
>>>>is all well and good for things like self promos which are harmless,
>>>>but when they cross a line we need to do something about them. Same
>>>>for blocking. Individuals can block the creepy email senders all they
>>>>want, but the person behind the issue isn't going to stop finding new
>>>>people to try sending stuff to unless there are consequences for them.
>>>>
>>>>Furthermore, this is a perfect example of handling disagreement. If
>>>>you don't think this is an issue that needs policing or don't like the
>>>>suggestions others have proffered, you can choose whether or not to
>>>>get involved in the thread. You are certainly free to have your
>>>>oppinions, but I took your last message as a negative slam of sorts
>>>>against people who feel there are major issues with conduct on the
>>>>list, and the suggestions they are just kicking around to see what
>>>>might come of them. Perhaps I read it the wrong way since we're
>>>>working through text alone here, but that's just the vibe I got. Case
>>>>and point why such an internet etiquette forum or something might be
>>>>useful, as tone in text verses spoken word was one of the proposed
>>>>topics for such a talk. Maybe it would only attract those who are
>>>>already cognicent of courtesy on the list, but obviously both of us
>>>>cared enough to jump in on this thread and got very different ideas of
>>>>how the previous posts were intended to sound.
>>>>
>>>>On 8/16/14, Karl Martin Adam via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> > I really don't think that "just delete what you don't want" is a
>>>> > sufficient response to women being sexually harassed by guys doing
>>>> > things like trying to trade tech help for a bra size. It is our
>>>> > responsibility as members of this list and the responsibility of
>>>> > the moderators to ensure that this is a safe place where people can
>>>> > post without being harassed. Maybe we can't get rid of this sort
>>>> > of thing completely, but that's no reason to tolerate this when
>>>> > it's brought to our attention.
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Littlefield, Tyler via nabs-l" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> > To: Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>, National
>>>> > Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date
>>>> > sent: Sat, 16 Aug 2014 00:21:45 -0400
>>>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>>> >
>>>> > Hello:
>>>> > I think this thread has gone on way to long. Firstly, the guy asked
>>>> > her bra size off list and she replied on list. Maybe it was not
>>>> > appropriate, but welcome to the internets in 2014. Just delete what
>>>> > you don't want.
>>>> >
>>>> > Second, you're talking about these emails for social networks like
>>>> > it's a huge issue. Maybe there are a few guys out there friending
>>>> > any girl with an email address, but usually what happens is they
>>>> > reply, then they say "here Facebook have my address book" and bam,
>>>> > everyone gets invitations. whether or not the person ment to send
>>>> > them.
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't know that holding confirence calls really is the way to go,
>>>> > just send out rule reminders every month and if there's a problem,
>>>> > just send it off to the admins to deal with as they see fit.
>>>> > Confirence calls, classes, talks, required agreements and the like
>>>> > are just going to be ignored by those who don't care and
>>>> > acknowledged for those who already acknowledge them. Forcing
>>>> > someone to say "I agree" to the rules is just forcing them to go
>>>> > through another step to register and they can still say "hey, I
>>>> > didn't read those rules." This also ends up taking a bit of extra
>>>> > work to embed in mailman, as I don't think it has this option. You
>>>> > do have the option of sending out monthly emails or welcome
>>>> > letters, at which point you could include rules, then failure to
>>>> > follow them can be the same results as not following the rules you
>>>> > have to click a button to agree, whatever that may be.
>>>> >
>>>> > I think this is getting blown out of perportion. There are spats on
>>>> > and off list, but if you really have a problem with someone just
>>>> > block them or hit delete on their messages.
>>>> > On 8/16/2014 12:10 AM, Kaiti Shelton via nabs-l wrote:
>>>> > It would also be great if somehow, we could address the issue of
>>>> > people taking advantage of the fact that other list members can't
>>>> > necessarily be anonymous and hide their emails to avoid unwanted
>>>> > attention off-list. I know policing such matters is impractical,
>>>> > but it is also kind of weird to have NABS members who I don't know
>>>> > practically stalking me because they want me to follow them back on
>>>> > Twitter, want to be a friend on facebook, want to be a connection
>>>> > or in my circle on Linked In or Google Plus, etc, plus send random
>>>> > emails to my address asking sometimes really odd questions. I
>>>> > think people would be less likely to jump the gun when
>>>> > inappropriate behavior happens on list and more apt to handle it
>>>> > appropriately if things like this didn't happen, as I know they
>>>> > happen to a fair number of people on the list. Would it be too
>>>> > much to put a guideline in which says something about how
>>>> > permission should be gained before sending a messages of a
>>>> > personal nature off list, or please don't friend someone on other
>>>> > social media outlets unless there is a mutual desire to be
>>>> > friends? Or, perhaps in addition to internet etiquette guidelines,
>>>> > there be some basic social guidelines in case some of this behavior
>>>> > is due to a lack of social supports outside of the internet, and
>>>> > the person for whatever reasons needs a bit of guidance in how to
>>>> > properly correspond with others so as not to come off overbearing.
>>>> >
>>>> > The bigger question is, how could this realistically be done
>>>> > without severely limiting intellectual conversation. Over the
>>>> > last few years I've gotten some very nice emails from people who
>>>> > wanted to respond to something I said privately, to give an honest
>>>> > opinion that they were too shy to put on the list for the very
>>>> > reason that they thought they would meet resistance or
>>>> > disapproval, or people who noticed things like my major and were
>>>> > curious for information. I wouldn't want to stifle any of these
>>>> > things and have actually made some good friends through some of
>>>> > these conversations which happened thanks to the NABS list, but it
>>>> > is a little weird, annoying, and a bit creepy, when some random
>>>> > guy won't stop sending me reminders to add him on different social
>>>> > media outlets, especially when they're ones I don't check or
>>>> > didn't really care to learn how to use after deciding I really
>>>> > didn't need the account, and they won't get the hint that I'm
>>>> > either not checking my account, am only still receiving their
>>>> > invitations because I haven't figured out how to block them on a
>>>> > site I never use, or am not interested in adding a stranger to see
>>>> > my personal information. I think that is a huge problem we have
>>>> > with the list, and especially puts a lot of the girls on here into
>>>> > a tricky spot because since this is all electronic, to engage by
>>>> > telling the person to leave you alone gives them what they want.
>>>> > I used the delete key a lot for dealing with these kinds of
>>>> > messages, but found with some the emails just keep coming even
>>>> > after 2 years of membership on the list.
>>>> >
>>>> > On 8/15/14, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > I like Jedi's idea of having a conference call on internet
>>>> > etiquette, but my concern is that only those who abide by the
>>>> > rules already will care to show up. It could be very effective,
>>>> > but my gut just tells me that it would be like preaching to the
>>>> > choir. Unfortunately, calling individuals out who have
>>>> > consistently demonstrated some of the negative or disrespectful
>>>> > behaviors we've mentioned on this thread is probably not the way
>>>> > to go either, unless done so by list moderators like Mary and
>>>> > Dave.
>>>> >
>>>> > I still think policing is the best way to go about this, but it
>>>> > would be up to the moderators, and could be a huge undertaking. I
>>>> > like the idea of having the rules set up on a screen after
>>>> > subscribers complete the initial form, and am a huge fan of using
>>>> > I agree or I don't Agree buttons to finish the subscription
>>>> > process if it is feasible. I think that would make it much harder
>>>> > for people to just say they were ignorant of the rules because
>>>> > they never cared to look for them.
>>>> > Sure, people will skim through it and not read, but at least we
>>>> > can say that they broke the rules at their own disgression and had
>>>> > an equal opportunity to read them. Granted, I'm of the opinion
>>>> > that when you join a list it's your responsibility to use common
>>>> > etiquette and/or educate yourself on the rules and therefore we're
>>>> > already all equal here anyway, but obviously not everyone on the
>>>> > list operates that way and that's why we're having this problem to
>>>> > begin with.
>>>> >
>>>> > Arielle gave some great advice about when to just let a thread go
>>>> > and to not respond, and I echo some of Antonio's sentiments about
>>>> > deleting a lot of what doesn't interest you. Some of the personal
>>>> > promotion stuff is annoying, but not harmful, and while I don't
>>>> > necessarily read what the promos say, I respect what the person
>>>> > making them is doing and their right to do it on a forum such as
>>>> > NABS. After all, if you're doing something geared toward blind
>>>> > teens and young adults, it's logical to use NABS as a sounding
>>>> > board to gather interested parties.
>>>> >
>>>> > There's a great quote from Thumper, the bunny in Bambi, which I
>>>> > believe goes something like, "If you don't got nothing nice to say,
>>>> > don't say it." I think most of the list members do well and abide
>>>> > by this, but the people who provide the put-downs, consistently
>>>> > respond negatively to other's comments, and who send inappropriate
>>>> > emails on list (and off by getting member emails and emailing to
>>>> > continue the inappropriate behaviors they start for all to see),
>>>> > are mostly repeat offenders who have left clear patterns of
>>>> > behavior behind in their emails. I'm not saying we should jump
>>>> > the gun and kick those people off, but we definitely know where to
>>>> > start and who to keep an eye on for these problems based on the
>>>> > past, if only we had a method for doing so.
>>>> >
>>>> > On 8/15/14, Sami Osborne via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> > Hi all,
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree with everything that's been said so far.
>>>> >
>>>> > I think that the guidelines should maybe be posted here more
>>>> > often, maybe not once every month but more than maybe once every
>>>> > 6 months. The reason I'm saying this is because since I've
>>>> > registered to this list, the guidelines have only been posted
>>>> > once. I think this would be a great way for everybody to be aware
>>>> > of the rules and think about what they've done if they have caused
>>>> > trouble on here.
>>>> > Also, another suggestion is that when people register, after they
>>>> > submit their email address, name and password, why couldn't the
>>>> > guidelines be displayed, with buttons or links for the person
>>>> > would have to click on to agree or disagree? Note: if they
>>>> > accidentally click "disagree," then they could be given a second
>>>> > chance to click "agree," and if for the second time they click on
>>>> > "agree," then their subscription will not be taken.
>>>> >
>>>> > About discussing opinions: I think that these kinds of
>>>> > discussions are fine as long as people are not personally
>>>> > insulting or attacking each other. In my opinion, if there is a
>>>> > discussion going on where two people have differing opinions and
>>>> > talk about their views, if it gets to the point where it starts to
>>>> > get bad, these people should stop discussing their opinions.
>>>> >
>>>> > These are just my thoughts.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thanks,
>>>> >
>>>> > Sami.
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: Arielle Silverman via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> > To: Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com>,National
>>>> > Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org Date
>>>> > sent: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 15:32:02 -0700
>>>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] NABS List Manners
>>>> >
>>>> > I agree with greater enforcement. I also think it would be nice
>>>> > if folks didn't respond to inappropriate messages on list. A
>>>> > single off-topic or obnoxious message often goes unnoticed but a
>>>> > huge thread of replies clutters inboxes and annoys people, plus
>>>> > rewarding someone who might be making an obnoxious post to glean
>>>> > attention. If a post bothers you, I suggest quietly emailing
>>>> > Mary and Dave Andrews so they can handle the offense and then
>>>> > quietly letting it go. If you aren't sure whether a message you
>>>> > see is inappropriate, ask the moderators privately. These are
>>>> > just my suggestions.
>>>> > Arielle
>>>> >
>>>> > On 8/14/14, Antonio Guimaraes via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> > Mary and all,
>>>> >
>>>> > This is not the first time list etiquette and civility has been
>>>> > brought up.
>>>> >
>>>> > People would think twice, or otherwise no longer have the
>>>> > opportunity to be
>>>> > inappropriate on list if there was enforcement of guidelines
>>>> > which suspended
>>>> > or banned people from list for violations.
>>>> >
>>>> > I have been threatened once for one spam sent to NFBNet lists,
>>>> > and I never
>>>> > did it again. The specifics do not concern the NABS list and
>>>> > are not
>>>> > relevant to the discussion at this time, but you bet I could
>>>> > have been
>>>> > banned by moderators, and as stated above, would no longer have
>>>> > the chance
>>>> > to polite the list in whatever way deemed inappropriate by the
>>>> > moderators.
>>>> >
>>>> > Some off topic messages to NABS irk me, but are infrequent
>>>> > enough that they
>>>> > don't bother me. I don't complain, hit delete ad move on.
>>>> >
>>>> > One much example are the periodic announcements from David about
>>>> > internet
>>>> > radio. It takes me a few seconds to see the topic and decide
>>>> > the
>>>> > announcement does not interest me. I delete, and move on with
>>>> > no stress. I'm
>>>> > sure David's programs are interesting to some, and I accept a
>>>> > member's
>>>> > self-promotion as a part of the supportive NABS community.
>>>> >
>>>> > I am not as tolerant of messages with personal information about
>>>> > others, or
>>>> > messages filled with self-disclosure on very personal and
>>>> > sensitive topics.
>>>> >
>>>> > We would be a better list if we were expected to act civilly,
>>>> > stay on topic,
>>>> > and so on, and be wormed, and disciplined when we do not.
>>>> >
>>>> > Antonio
>>>> >
>>>> > On Aug 10, 2014, at 8:55 PM, Mary Fernandez via nabs-l
>>>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Good evening all,
>>>> > I hope everyone's weekend was very enjoyable.
>>>> > I am writing because I am deeply concerned about the manners, or
>>>> > lack
>>>> > thereof, which are more and more frequently being displayed on
>>>> > the
>>>> > list serv. I'll quickly remind you that the list is supposed to
>>>> > be a
>>>> > resource for blind students, of all ages, young professionals,
>>>> > parents
>>>> > and teachers. The list is "public" and "archivable", which
>>>> > means that
>>>> > anything we write on here is easily brought up when someone,
>>>> > anyone,
>>>> > conducts a Google search.
>>>> > When someone inquires about software, or help with anything,
>>>> > which
>>>> > relates to blindness, or has a question and asks that you
>>>> > contact them
>>>> > off line, it does not mean that you can be disrespectful to that
>>>> > person. The list is NOT here for insults to be thrown back and
>>>> > forth,
>>>> > for inappropriate comments, or for general disrespect towards
>>>> > others.
>>>> > So, here is my question, how can we improve communication among
>>>> > list
>>>> > members? Does this list still have value, and if so what are the
>>>> > values and how to we maintain them? Let's have a discussion
>>>> > about
>>>> > issues and solutions. I'm probably opening a can of worms, but
>>>> > I'm
>>>> > truly concerned about the tone of the messages on here, and the
>>>> > frequency with which they have been occurring. Please, be
>>>> > polite and
>>>> > respectful when responding to this message, and if you have
>>>> > strong
>>>> > feelings you do not wish to make public, simply click on my
>>>> > email
>>>> > address: trillian551 at gmail.com and reply to me directly.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thank you,
>>>> > Sincerely,
>>>> > Your list moderator,
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Mary Fernandez
>>>> > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
>>>> > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made
>>>> > them
>>>> > feel."
>>>> > --
>>>> > Maya Angelou
>>>> >
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Kaiti
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Take care,
>>>> > Ty
>>>> > http://tds-solutions.net
>>>> > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a
>>>> > fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Kaiti
>>>>
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>
>
> --
> Mary Fernandez
> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them
> feel."
> --
> Maya Angelou
>
--
Mary Fernandez
"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will
forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them
feel."
--
Maya Angelou
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