[nabs-l] question about independence
Carly Mihalakis
carlymih at comcast.net
Wed Mar 5 02:58:47 UTC 2014
Hi, Jedi and everyone,
I agree that was very artfully compacted. For me, in order to move
about within my space given that my head is like a sieve, and I might
get lost in a paper bag even if you pointed out the opening with
which to get out. I have found it serves my immediate need to get an
escort, as I negotiate my space. I hope like Gedi, escorting me is
both fun and enlightening. I try to make it so, anyway.
for today, Car
408-209-3239
0 5:19 AM 3/4/2014, Antonio Guimaraes wrote:
>Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very
>nicely. Thanks.
>
>Antonio
>
>On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>
> > Greetings.
> >
> > Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to
> produce this message.
> >
> > I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so
> complicated.
> >
> > I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed
> based on behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just
> talking about blindness skills, there is a big difference between
> somebody who occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes
> one intermittently or situationally versus someone who takes one on
> such a regular basis that they do not ever move on their own
> volition. That can be said for any task of independence. If an
> individual hardly ever does something on their own, it might be
> rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further training.
> >
> > If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a
> person is independent to the extent that their personal choices
> stick. Also, Dr. Jernigan adds that independence is also a function
> of how much inconvenience is involved for the self and others.
> Sometimes, it is more convenient to do something on one's own.
> Sometimes, it is more convenient to get help. Sometimes, helping
> another person is convenient for someone. Sometimes not. These
> things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case basis.
> >
> > Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with
> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as
> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether
> you take a human guide most of the time or choose to walk on your
> own, this thread seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice
> is wrapped up in this concept of autonomy.
> >
> > Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community
> even though it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been
> around a while and have noticed that people tend to be most upset
> by potential helpers when some helper violates a boundary. For
> instance, when a sighted person insists that a blind person needs
> help, when a sighted person grabs a blind person, when a sighted
> person tells a blind person something the blind person already
> knows, etc. I think most people would find themselves equally
> annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many of
> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided
> people are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The
> reason why these things are so annoying is because they interfere
> with a sense of autonomy and personal choice. Also, people do not
> like to be messed with when they already have a skill required to
> perform a task. Does any of this sound familiar? It should be. But
> for those of us with disabilities, the problem is compounded by low
> expectations of what we can do. These expectations are both
> internal and external.
> >
> > Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is
> the case for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On
> one hand, we want to honor the fact that we are capable people with
> a life experience as rich and meaningful as someone else. We
> believe that we can contribute to society and we want the
> opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the same time, we want to
> honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be seen as a people
> with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a very
> difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never
> get it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous.
> >
> > I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of
> independence as it relates to all the topics discussed above.
> >
> > Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those
> choices stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options
> for ways to do something. Every situation is different and every
> situation will dictate the manner in which something should be
> done. Sometimes, it is best to get help. Sometimes, it is best to
> do something on your own. You have to be equally prepared to do
> either. If you are not, then it can be said that your choice making
> ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, then it is worth
> your while to learn a set of skills for using help effectively and
> working on your own.
> >
> > If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the
> situation is to view the other person as an extension of yourself.
> In other words, you need to be in control of what help you receive
> as only you will know how someone else's help will best accommodate
> your needs. This technique also ensures that you are not defined by
> the help you need, but are defined in instead by the contributions
> you make with and without assistance. It is important to remember
> though, that the people who help you are human beings. I find that
> whatever you can do to break the ice helps to alleviate discomfort
> and can reduce the amount of awkward between you and the person who
> helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems including boundary
> crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one who initiates
> the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make pleasant
> conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the help
> I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who
> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any
> information that I can provide that would make there helping me
> easier, I provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product
> is generally located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will
> provide that information to make my helpers search easier. If there
> is something that I can get for myself well my helper grabs
> something else, I will if it means making the experience faster. A
> lot of folks who have helped me say that they learn from me about
> where we are and what we are doing that makes their job better in
> the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade for the help they give me.
> >
> > If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with
> unwanted assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all
> of the time. I think we tend to believe that an interaction with
> one of us will set the tone for how a sighted person feels about
> all of us. I have learned to do away with this notion as I find it
> puts more pressure on me then is helpful and necessary. I also find
> that believe myself to be an ambassador for the blind creates an
> invisible audience. Communication research tells us that people
> tend to respond more negatively to face threats when there is and
> audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel
> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case,
> autonomy is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or
> not someone gets help, but whether or not somebody is able to make
> a choice between getting help or not getting it. No matter how we
> handle the situation, the reality is that sometimes, we can only do
> our best and except it. And sometimes, our best may not be a
> shining example of what could be possible for all kinds of reasons
> that have nothing to do with blindness.
> >
> > Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means
> let's roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away
> with the notion that the individual who refuses help has a chip on
> their shoulder.
> >
> > And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the
> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that
> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful
> about stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach
> to independence. I have found this to be less so than not.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Jedi
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Good morning, Antonio,
> >>
> >> I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my
> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see
> and not so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding
> their particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting
> more help from sighted people than probably do you and your
> Federationist peers.
> >> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving
> don't matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of
> this, as well. Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that
> tends to matter to them is that we do it. If you have a sighted
> person help you, then so be it It doesn't matter, in the end.
> >> It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much
> more fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some
> usually abstract point about what blind people are able or unable
> to do. In this way, blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I
> walk sighted guide simply by grabbing a shoulder. This way, you
> glide seamlessly over that awkward moment in which ol' Sighty and
> you try to figure out who is supposed to grab who's arm.) I
> appreciate how you said people need to travel in whichever way
> works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There are others
> inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and
> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose
> sight of this reality.
> >> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote:
> >>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that
> talks about independence as a core of our philosophy.
> >>>
> >>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how
> they deal with the public will very likely determine how we
> interact, how close friends we are, and how highly we might regard
> that person in our social groups.
> >>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We
> may choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That
> is okay at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle
> said. If I feel like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating
> through tight quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I
> feel like dealing with the same environment on my own,
> independently if you will, someone will have a perception of that.
> >>>
> >>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone
> know matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports
> on my own, and another day I choose to accept more assistance,
> there is nothing wrong with my approach on either day.
> >>>
> >>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down
> the stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to
> lose my footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me
> over. I may not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn
> it down, and will do so very firmly.
> >>>
> >>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king,
> pulling it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great
> opportunity to educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide.
> >>>
> >>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not
> because they need to learn something, but because I need to get
> somewhere, and quick.
> >>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control
> of how I interact during travel, and keep myself safe.
> >>>
> >>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with
> traveling a short distance guided by the cane direction.
> >>>
> >>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried
> about safety, I will be guided by Cain.
> >>>
> >>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences
> between me, and the guy.
> >>>
> >>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with
> males. She offered to help me, and explained her situation. She
> guided me by Cain, and I got to where I was just fine. And she
> wasn't in any spiritual trouble from that.
> >>>
> >>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave
> matters. How we feel very safe from time to time, they today,
> situation to situation. It changes with time also.
> >>>
> >>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you
> think is the right way to interact with the blind, you could be
> annoyed with something or another.
> >>>
> >>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over,
> and over, and over by different people at different places at
> different times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure
> how to think about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost?
> >>>
> >>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away
> from help, or I could smile, say no, and continue on.
> >>>
> >>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day.
> >>>
> >>> Antonio
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato
> <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then
> what you did is fine. Why does our opinion matter?
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed <malhajamy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence. Earlier,
> someone brought up the what is independence thread. That reminds
> me of something. So, this friday, I was in a cab. I go to school
> by taking cabs. So, this driver in particular, he wanted to help
> me with practically everything. Putting my stuff in, opening the
> cab's door, getting into the school, everything. This is what I'm
> wondering. When is it best to not accept help, and when should I
> ask for help? In this situation, should I have accepted help? Or
> should I have done what I did, and politely said no?
> >>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>
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