[nabs-l] question about independence

[Ashley Bramlett]

RJ,
I think it’s the job of everyone in a kid's life from teachers, to parents, 
to rehab teachers.

-----Original Message----- 
From: RJ Sandefur
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:49 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence

Why do rehabilitation agencies feel blind people need social skills
training? Isn't that the rehabilitation centers job? RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question about independence


> Hi all,
>
> It's true that, unfortunately, the actions or non-actions of one blind
> person can impact how other blind people are viewed. However, I agree
> with Jedi that trying to take on responsibility for how other blind
> people are perceived is more unhealthy than it's worth. It makes me
> think of research showing just how stressful trying not to confirm
> negative stereotypes can be for members of other minority groups.
> I think all we can do is the best we can. We should be concerned with
> managing interactions with sighted people in a way that preserves our
> own dignity and autonomy while also allowing us to build positive
> relationships with others around us.
>
> Best,
> Arielle
>
> On 3/4/14, Antonio Guimaraes <freethaught at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Very well said, Jedi. You really packaged the entire thing very nicely.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Antonio
>>
>> On Mar 4, 2014, at 12:25 AM, Jedi Moerke <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings.
>>>
>>> Let me apologize in advance for any errors as I used Siri to produce 
>>> this
>>> message.
>>>
>>> I have been hesitant to comment on this thread because it is so
>>> complicated.
>>>
>>> I think someone's level of actual independence has to be assessed based 
>>> on
>>> behavioral patterns rather than incidences. If we are just talking about
>>> blindness skills, there is a big difference between somebody who
>>> occasionally takes a human guide or someone who takes one intermittently
>>> or situationally versus someone who takes one on such a regular basis 
>>> that
>>> they do not ever move on their own volition. That can be said for any 
>>> task
>>> of independence. If an individual hardly ever does something on their 
>>> own,
>>> it might be rightfully presumed that such an individual may need further
>>> training.
>>>
>>> If we are talking about personal choice, it can be said that a person is
>>> independent to the extent that their personal choices stick. Also, Dr.
>>> Jernigan adds that independence is also a function of how much
>>> inconvenience is involved for the self and others. Sometimes, it is more
>>> convenient to do something on one's own. Sometimes, it is more 
>>> convenient
>>> to get help. Sometimes, helping another person is convenient for 
>>> someone.
>>> Sometimes not. These things have to be negotiated on a case-by-case
>>> basis.
>>>
>>> Then, there's the issue of identity. As a community, people with
>>> disabilities tend to prefer that the outside population sees us as
>>> autonomous. We also want to see ourselves as autonomous. Whether you 
>>> take
>>> a human guide  most of the time or choose to walk on your own, this 
>>> thread
>>> seems to bind all of us. I think personal choice is wrapped up in this
>>> concept of autonomy.
>>>
>>> Here is an issue often overlooked by the disability community even 
>>> though
>>> it is often of central focus. Boundaries. I have been around a while and
>>> have noticed that people tend to be most upset by potential helpers when
>>> some helper violates a boundary. For instance, when a sighted person
>>> insists that a blind person needs help, when a sighted person grabs a
>>> blind person, when a sighted person tells a blind person something the
>>> blind person already knows, etc. I think most people would find 
>>> themselves
>>> equally annoyed or they in our place. In fact, they often do. How many 
>>> of
>>> your cited friends are annoyed by backseat drivers? How many sided 
>>> people
>>> are annoyed and frustrated by overbearing parents? The reason why these
>>> things are so annoying is because they interfere with a sense of 
>>> autonomy
>>> and personal choice. Also, people do not like to be messed with when 
>>> they
>>> already have a skill required to perform a task. Does any of this sound
>>> familiar? It should be. But for those of us with disabilities, the 
>>> problem
>>> is compounded by low expectations of what we can do. These expectations
>>> are both internal and external.
>>>
>>> Negotiating the topic of independence is tricky. I think this is the 
>>> case
>>> for most anybody with a disability no matter what type. On one hand, we
>>> want to honor the fact that we are capable people with a life experience
>>> as rich and meaningful as someone else. We believe that we can 
>>> contribute
>>> to society and we want the opportunity to do it on our own terms. At the
>>> same time, we want to honor other people's goodwill. We don't want to be
>>> seen as a people with a chip on their shoulder. In my opinion, this is a
>>> very difficult situation to be in. We are all human and we will never 
>>> get
>>> it right all the time. To expect otherwise is ridiculous.
>>>
>>> I'll tell you what I tell my students about the concept of independence 
>>> as
>>> it relates to all the topics discussed above.
>>>
>>> Independence is your ability to make choices and to have those choices
>>> stick. The most independent of us have a variety of options for ways to 
>>> do
>>> something. Every situation is different and every situation will dictate
>>> the manner in which something should be done. Sometimes, it is best to 
>>> get
>>> help. Sometimes, it is best to do something on your own. You have to be
>>> equally prepared to do either. If you are not, then it can be said that
>>> your choice making ability is limited. If you find yourself limited, 
>>> then
>>> it is worth your while to learn a set of skills for using help 
>>> effectively
>>> and working on your own.
>>>
>>> If you find that help is required, the best way to negotiate the 
>>> situation
>>> is to view the other person as an extension of yourself. In other words,
>>> you need to be in control of what help you receive as only you will know
>>> how someone else's help will best accommodate your needs. This technique
>>> also ensures that you are not defined by the help you need, but are
>>> defined in instead by the contributions you make with and without
>>> assistance. It is important to remember though, that the people who help
>>> you are human beings. I find that whatever you can do to break the ice
>>> helps to alleviate discomfort and can reduce the amount of awkward 
>>> between
>>> you and the person who helps you. This eliminates all kinds of problems
>>> including boundary crossing. When I get help, I make sure to be the one
>>> who initiates the interaction. I introduce myself, smile, and make
>>> pleasant conversation that has nothing to do with my blindness and the
>>> help I need. If at all possible, I try to focus on the individual who
>>> helps me or uncommon topics we can both discuss. If there is any
>>> information that I can provide that would make there helping me easier, 
>>> I
>>> provided freely. For instants, if I know where a product is generally
>>> located in a grocery store or on the shelf, I will provide that
>>> information to make my helpers search easier. If there is something that 
>>> I
>>> can get for myself well my helper grabs something else, I will if it 
>>> means
>>> making the experience faster. A lot of folks who have helped me say that
>>> they learn from me about where we are and what we are doing that makes
>>> their job better in the long run. I feel that that's a pretty even trade
>>> for the help they give me.
>>>
>>> If you prefer to work on your own, that's okay too. Dealing with 
>>> unwanted
>>> assistance can be tricky and none of us get it right all of the time. I
>>> think we tend to believe that an interaction with one of us will set the
>>> tone for how a sighted person feels about all of us. I have learned to 
>>> do
>>> away with this notion as I find it puts more pressure on me then is
>>> helpful and necessary. I also find that believe myself to be an 
>>> ambassador
>>> for the blind creates an invisible audience. Communication research 
>>> tells
>>> us that people tend to respond more negatively to face threats when 
>>> there
>>> is and audience. Face threat is any action that causes someone to feel
>>> like their sense of identity is being threatened. In this case, autonomy
>>> is in question. Remember that autonomy is not whether or not someone 
>>> gets
>>> help, but whether or not somebody is able to make a choice between 
>>> getting
>>> help or not getting it. No matter how we handle the situation, the 
>>> reality
>>> is that sometimes, we can only do our best and except it. And sometimes,
>>> our best may not be a shining example of what could be possible for all
>>> kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with blindness.
>>>
>>> Just as we need to get rid of the notion that independence means let's
>>> roll and dependence all of the time, we also must do away with the 
>>> notion
>>> that the individual who refuses help has a chip on their shoulder.
>>>
>>> And one more thing, it's important to recognize that, though the
>>> Federation has a philosophy of independence, we all express that
>>> philosophy differently. That said, I would be particularly careful about
>>> stereotyping all Federation us as dogmatic in their approach to
>>> independence. I have found this to be less so than not.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Mar 3, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good morning, Antonio,
>>>>
>>>>       I'm glad you shed that chip from your shoulder, too! In my
>>>> experience, sighted people are most impressed by what they see and  not
>>>> so much by what someone is lecturing them about regarding their
>>>> particular special interest. So, I tend toward yes, accepting more help
>>>> from sighted people than probably do you and your Federationist peers.
>>>> Also, Antonio, in the end, someone's actual means of achieving don't
>>>> matter to l' Sighty. I feel the Federation loses sight of this, as 
>>>> well.
>>>> Ol' Sighty cares not how we do something. All that tends to matter to
>>>> them is that we do it. If you have a sighted person help you, then so 
>>>> be
>>>> it It doesn't matter, in the end.
>>>>  It's okay for me, though. I am a people person, finding it much more
>>>> fulfilling to interact with people than try proving some usually 
>>>> abstract
>>>> point about what blind people are able or unable to do. In this way,
>>>> blind person can just recruit a shoulder (I walk sighted guide simply 
>>>> by
>>>> grabbing a shoulder. This way, you glide seamlessly over that awkward
>>>> moment in which ol' Sighty and you try to figure out who is supposed to
>>>> grab who's arm.) I appreciate how you said people need to travel in
>>>> whichever way works best for them. It is not only about blinks. There 
>>>> are
>>>> others inhabiting this earth, with their own special interests and
>>>> philosophies. I feel like those wrapped up in Federationism lose sight 
>>>> of
>>>> this reality.
>>>> loving, for today, Car08:58 AM 3/3/2014, you wrote:
>>>>> Our opinion matters a great deal, since we are a Community that talks
>>>>> about independence as a core of our philosophy.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I think about another's approach to independence, and how they 
>>>>> deal
>>>>> with the public will very likely determine how we interact, how close
>>>>> friends we are, and how highly we might regard that person in our 
>>>>> social
>>>>> groups.
>>>>> This is an interesting question that bears no right answer. We may
>>>>> choose to refuse help in such a way that puts people off. That is okay
>>>>> at times if that is how we feel at the time, as Arielle said. If I 
>>>>> feel
>>>>> like taking someone's arm to deal with navigating through tight
>>>>> quarters, that is my own call to me. Instead, if I feel like dealing
>>>>> with the same environment on my own, independently if you will, 
>>>>> someone
>>>>> will have a perception of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a matter of fact, someone will have a perception of everyone know
>>>>> matter what they do. If one day I want to deal with airports on my 
>>>>> own,
>>>>> and another day I choose to accept more assistance, there is nothing
>>>>> wrong with my approach on either day.
>>>>>
>>>>> If sometimes a stranger grabs me by the jacket to guide me down the
>>>>> stairs, you bet I will do something about it. I don't want to lose my
>>>>> footing, and tumble down because this person is dragging me over. I 
>>>>> may
>>>>> not want help, need help, and so I will refuse it, turn it down, and
>>>>> will do so very firmly.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone offers me to guide me by the cane, yes by the king, pulling
>>>>> it I had of me, I may turn this scenario into a great opportunity to
>>>>> educate someone about proper techniques of sighted guide.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most likely I will ask to follow the person by the elbow not because
>>>>> they need to learn something, but because I need to get somewhere, and
>>>>> quick.
>>>>> Most times I will be put off, and endangered by losing control of how 
>>>>> I
>>>>> interact during travel, and keep myself safe.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there have been a handful of times when I was cool with traveling 
>>>>> a
>>>>> short distance guided by the cane direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there are no steps to worry about, and I am not worried about 
>>>>> safety,
>>>>> I will be guided by Cain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mostly when this happened, there work some cultural differences 
>>>>> between
>>>>> me, and the guy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider the Muslim woman who could not have contact with males. She
>>>>> offered to help me, and explained her situation. She guided me by 
>>>>> Cain,
>>>>> and I got to where I was just fine. And she wasn't in any spiritual
>>>>> trouble from that.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are always being observed by the public. How we behave matters. How
>>>>> we feel very safe from time to time, they today, situation to 
>>>>> situation.
>>>>> It changes with time also.
>>>>>
>>>>> But even if you have a day when everyone is doing what you think is 
>>>>> the
>>>>> right way to interact with the blind, you could be annoyed with
>>>>> something or another.
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember one day traveling in the city, and being asked over, and
>>>>> over, and over by different people at different places at different
>>>>> times if I needed help getting somewhere. I wasn't sure how to think
>>>>> about this after the 20th time. Do I look that lost?
>>>>>
>>>>> That day, I had the choice to be stern, say no, and turn away from 
>>>>> help,
>>>>> or I could smile, say no, and continue on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm glad I chose to take the chip off my shoulder that day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Antonio
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 2:15 PM, Jamie Principato <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you didn't need his help and didn't really want it, then what you
>>>>>> did is fine. Why does our opinion matter?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 1, 2014, at 8:45 AM, Mohamed <malhajamy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all, I have a question about independence.  Earlier, someone
>>>>>>> brought up the what is independence thread.  That reminds me of
>>>>>>> something.  So, this friday, I was in a cab.  I go to school by 
>>>>>>> taking
>>>>>>> cabs.  So, this driver in  particular, he wanted to help me  with
>>>>>>> practically everything.  Putting my stuff in, opening the cab's 
>>>>>>> door,
>>>>>>> getting into the school, everything.  This is what I'm wondering.
>>>>>>> When is it best to not accept help, and when should I ask for help? 
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> this situation, should I have accepted help? Or should I have done
>>>>>>> what I did, and politely said no?
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
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