[nabs-l] my blog about my experiences at LCB

Fri Sep 11 23:42:35 UTC 2015

Hi all,

We had this same discussion over on the NAGDU list with the same... results.  :)

It is evident from the reactions of both members of the Nabs and Nagdu
lists that there is a lot to say on the topic of NFB and guide dogs as
well as the training center policies related to guide dogs.  I can
tell you that the members of Nagdu seem to be divided in their
opinions of the training centers' guide dog policies, and in my own
humble opinion, I think the topics are something we must address head
on, think critically about, and perhaps work towards change.

I am a guide dog user.  Off and on over the years I have considered
going to a training center to gain better cooking, home management,
and travel skills.  Yes, I said travel skills.  I got a dog at age 17
and did not really have the cane skills that I should have at the
time.  I believe I could benefit from the full-immersion model of
traning.  The reason I have not pursued this idea is that I would like
to encorporate my guide dog into training.  I have made the choice to
be a guide dog user--this means that the majority of my travel time, I
use a guide dog as my tool of choice.

Derek, you state that the centers are immersion programs, immersing
the client in blindness training.  My creative mind actually finds
that to be more of a reason to allow the guide dogs to be encorporated
into the training experience.  I have had several friends at training
centers.  As I understand it, the students are encouraged to learn and
work with a variety of tools: canes, slates, Braille writers,
screenreaders, note takers, etc.  And I doubt I know the half of it...
:)

I also understand that the students in their tech classes get to learn
what will be the most helpful to them in their lives after they have
mastered the basics.  So, why not this method for the guide dog?  Is
the dog not a valuable tool that some blind people choose?  Perhaps
the dog is discounted because of its working eyes.  This logic,
however, does not stand up to reality.  If I did not have good
orientation skills, I could not direct my dog, figure out what his
signals are telling me at different times, or redirect him if he tries
to get us off course.  (It happens...)

The cane is the first tool.  We dog users need superior cane skills so
that we can pick up that white stick when our dogs fall ill or must be
left behind for whatever reason.  And I'm talking superior skills...
Because if we don't use it everyday, we need to readjust quickly to
the differences in balance of the body with a cane in hand as well as
our reactions to tactile feedback.

So I am not knocking the importance the centers place on cane skills,
but I do believe it would be important for students with guide dogs to
be able to work with their dogs in their classes as well as in travel
a certain amount.  The amount would depend on the student, their
goals, and perhaps their mastry of certain skills with the cane.

On 9/11/15, Aleeha Dudley via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> While I do believe that leaving the dog alone may be wrong, do not many
> employed blind people with dogs not work them for eight hours a day? If you
> get out and work in the evenings, practice obedience, do plenty of bonding
> and play exercises while you are at your apartment, I see no reason that the
> bond should we can as long as your dog understands that you will come back.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 1:33 PM, Danielle Sykora via nabs-l
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Not allowing students to use guide dogs in travel classes is
>> understandable since it would significantly alter the skills the
>> student is being taught. I do think that incorporating the dog into
>> travel classes once the student becomes proficient in structured
>> discovery methods would be beneficial to the student. This would give
>> her the opportunity to start applying the skills she has learned while
>> traveling with a cane to a dog while still having the opportunity to
>> receive feedback and ask questions to a qualified instructor.
>> Orientation skills are important regardless of the type of mobility
>> aid, but the feedback one gets from the environment differs with a
>> cane when compared to a dog.
>>
>> That being said, I see the NFB center policy that forbids students
>> from being allowed to work their dogs during other (non-travel
>> related) classes to be blatantly discriminatory. There is no reason
>> why a student should not bring her dog to say Braille instruction.
>> These students are adults who need to find a balance between working
>> their dogs and practicing cane travel. How do centers handle
>> non-guiding service dogs? More complicated, what are their policies
>> regarding guides that are cross trained for other tasks?
>>
>> I truly think some non-dog users do not fully understand how guide
>> dogs work. You can not expect leaving a dog for a near constant eight
>> hours a day, five days a week will not have negative consequences from
>> damaging the bond to stress and boredom related behaviors to more
>> frequent mistakes due to lack of work. I know the majority of NFB
>> members are respectful of others mobility choices, but an anti-dog
>> ideology still lingers no matter how much people deny it. Perhaps it
>> is due to lack of education. It seems as if people with anti-views
>> often have a distorted idea of how a guide dog partner ship works in
>> my experience. I honestly don't know.
>>
>> I find it troubling that negative experiences and criticism of NFB
>> sponsored programs is so discouraged on these lists. I'm not trying to
>> be derogatory or critical. I want to make situations better, and you
>> can not do that if you only focus on the positives.
>>
>> Danielle
>>
>>
>>> On 9/11/15, minh ha via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Organizational differences aside, I'm honestly disappointed that
>>> members of this list cannot express negative opinions without being
>>> branded as disagreeable and as someone who is actively working against
>>> the NFB. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, and other people
>>> have expressed displeasure at how they have been treated by the NFB
>>> training centers, and yet, only Tyler have been targeted by you and
>>> Katherine on list for his messages. This has been a recurring problem
>>> from what I have seen, and if I didn't know any better, I would say
>>> you and Katherine have a personal issue with Tyler since he is on
>>> ACBS's board. And quite frankly, organizational affiliation doesn't
>>> even have any relevance in this conversation when it comes to being
>>> discriminated by the NFB.
>>>
>>> Minh
>>>
>>>> On 9/11/15, Derek Manners via nabs-l <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hello all, mostly Kate, Tyler, and Hope.
>>>>
>>>> First,  I agree that Kate should not try to shut down negative opinions.
>>>> However, I think Kate did a poor job of articulating what she meant when
>>>> she
>>>> expressed disapproval of Tyler's message. Her problem with it, I assume,
>>>> is
>>>> the tone. You can disagree without being disagreeable and unfortunately
>>>> Tyler has shown a propensity to be disagreeable, specifically to Kate
>>>> during
>>>> her campaign announcement which he later apologized for.
>>>>
>>>> Second, the NFB training centers have a certain philosophy when it comes
>>>> to
>>>> guide dogs. I think of it as being a similar philosophy as to why my
>>>> cousin
>>>> taught me how to drive a car even though I can't legally drive one. 1.
>>>> There
>>>> may come a time when I'd need to and there may come a time in a guide
>>>> dog
>>>> user's life when they need to use a cane over a dog and being versed in
>>>> both
>>>> is important if you are a dog user. Second, there are lessons that came
>>>> travel teach you about mobility with regard to structured discovery that
>>>> are
>>>> important when using a cane or a dog.
>>>>
>>>> As to the computer training, I know for a fact that LCB gives advanced
>>>> instruction to those who need it. Specifically, my friends Kate Webster
>>>> and
>>>> Syed Rizvi have gotten/will be getting training on coding as a blind
>>>> person.
>>>> Talking to a trainer informally who may or may not know what they are
>>>> talking about is quite different than working out a formal plan through
>>>> voc
>>>> rehab and the center.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, Tyler, you really ought to disclose to folks when you are
>>>> talking
>>>> about your philosophical views about the NFB that you are on the ACB
>>>> student
>>>> board and that ACB routinely publicly criticizes NFB and our philosophy.
>>>> Your opinions are not those of someone who normally agrees with NFB
>>>> philosophy who is pointing out a minor difference, you are someone who,
>>>> in
>>>> certain instances, works against our legislative efforts, our
>>>> philosophical
>>>> message, and actively tries to influence state agencies that we are
>>>> wrong
>>>> and your organization is right.
>>>>
>>>> You can obviously post anything you like and I think it's healthy to
>>>> debate
>>>> philosophical differences. But you should do it in an agreeable tone and
>>>> you
>>>> should fully disclose your elected position.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Derek Manners
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 12:48 PM, Carlos Montas via nabs-l
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I would say that is why you have consumer choice as to what kind of
>>>>> rehabilitation center you would like to attend.  That is the wonderful
>>>>> thing about America the freedom of choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 8:40 AM, Hope Paulos via nabs-l
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to chime in here.  I also have a dog and won't attend a
>>>>>> training
>>>>>> center because I can't use him. I understand not being able to use
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> for travel classes, that makes sense, but not being able to use him
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> cooking, shop, and braille classes? I am also put off by the arrogance
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> some of the NFB center instructors. I was working the booth as a
>>>>>> trainer
>>>>>> at the convention for an assistive technology company.  A center
>>>>>> instructor came up wanting to look at some of the products we had on
>>>>>> display. I showed them the products, and then proceeded to ask them a
>>>>>> question. Because I have a graduate certificate in assistive
>>>>>> technology,
>>>>>> as well as a graduate certificate in technical support, I wanted to
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> if my technology classes would be tailored to my advanced needs. The
>>>>>> instructor proceeded to laugh at me, and told me "graduate certificate
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> not, you will go through the same class as everyone else, starting
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> keyboarding." My colleague, who was sitting beside me, and I were
>>>>>> shocked
>>>>>> at this person's attitude… keep in mind, I am a trainer for an
>>>>>> assistive
>>>>>> technology company, and I have to start with keyboarding? I also have
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> bachelors degree in education… The first thing that you learned about
>>>>>> teaching is that everybody learns differently, and everybody is on
>>>>>> different levels… Education cannot be "One-size-fits-all."
>>>>>> Unfortunately,
>>>>>> this seems to be the philosophy of the NFB centers.
>>>>>> Sorry for the rant! On a more positive note, I look forward to reading
>>>>>> your blog, and hope that you have A wonderful time and learn a lot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope Paulos
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2015, at 8:29 AM, Littlefield, Tyler via nabs-l
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was going to ask about your experience with a dog, given the name
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> your blog. I find it rather amusing that NFB-associated centers
>>>>>>> discrimenate so hard against dogs, yet they're the first to scream
>>>>>>> discrimenation. I was not hired to a program last summer and it was
>>>>>>> mostly because I didn't answer the rather pointed questions about
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> I would do with my dog (like if he could stay in a room) for classes,
>>>>>>> quite the way they wanted. There I think my hope in the NFB, at least
>>>>>>> what remained of it shattered to pieces. We're the first to ask for
>>>>>>> equal access, yet equal access is not provided unless you have a
>>>>>>> straight white cane and drink the Cool-Aid.
>>>>>>>> On 9/11/2015 8:17 AM, Aleeha Dudley via nabs-l wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hey all, If you’d like to read about my experiences at LCB, here is
>>>>>>>> a link to my blog. http://4pawsatmyside.wordpress.com
>>>>>>>> <http://4pawsatmyside.wordpress.com/> I will be detailing my
>>>>>>>> experiences in class, as well as those with my guide dog, Dallas,
>>>>>>>> especially given the center’s policies about guide dogs. I
>>>>>>>> apologize if this is off topic for the list. Feel free to write me
>>>>>>>> off list with questions. Aleeha Dudley
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing
>>>>>>>> list nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> - --
>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>> Ty
>>>>>>> twitter: @sorressean
>>>>>>> web:http://tysdomain.com
>>>>>>> pubkey: http://tysdomain.com/files/pubkey.asc
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Minh Ha
>>> Boston College | Lynch School of Education '16
>>> minh.ha927 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty
>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity:
>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on
>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence
>>>
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-- 
Julie McGinnity
National Federation of the Blind of Missouri second vice president,
National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary,
Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President
graduate, Guiding Eyes for the Blind 2008, 2014
"For we walk by faith, not by sight"
2 Cor. 7