[nagdu] Nfb centers and guide dogs

Dan Weiner dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
Mon Nov 3 05:42:58 UTC 2008 

I respect your point though we still disagree--grin.
I, myself, am not drawing conclusions about the NFB, I thought though this
type of approach to guide dogs would lead a "casual observer" to conclude
that the NFB is anti-dog.
then again, if the shoe fits, wear it.
I've been a Federationist for nigh 25 years and the approach to the guide
dog and the unnecessary and divisive cane verses dog debate is the only
thing that has truly made me uncomfortable.

Well, then what're  policies at various NFB run centers relating to guide
dogs accompanying people there going for whatever type of training nowadays,
since you mentioned it?

As far as curricula and so on, the recommendation about the Carol Center and
so on leads me to wonder then about the need even to have NFB run centers.
We're the blind speaking for the blind, we hear constantly, but yet a
certain group of the blind are chosen somehow to choose what type of rehab
we might need.
Frankly, I'm an adult and do have some idea what my strengths and weaknesses
are, I have both--grin.

When I inquired about the center in question, all be it ten years ago, I was
told that I'd leave my dog in the apartment because I'd be using the cane to
get back and forth to the center.
So, apparently using a guide dog to get to the center, a distance of about a
mile I was told, will somehow mean that I don't have travel skills?
I asked and was not given an answer. I'm frankly fed up with this type of
unmitigated rot.
And, wherein lies the difference between an NFB center telling you you can't
bring a dog in and a place telling you you can't bring your dog because you
can use a cane.  Some NAC run or other agencies have done that and I seem to
recall we were against that?
So, if the blind take a discriminatory stance it's more noble than if nAC
does?

Now, remember, David, I'm  not flaming you and you certainly have always
shown yourself to be a fair and pleasant list member and, I think, owner?

I'm expressing my opinion because I see no reason not to as we all have
them--grin--and I'm not in to pussy-footing around about this issue the way
I've felt I had to in the past when doing Federation stuff.
That's what the list is for and I love the list and other guide dog related
lists.


Cordially,

Dan W.  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of David Andrews
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:25 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nfb centers and guide dogs

I think that policies and approaches have evolved over the years.  It isn't
fair of you to condemn something with ten year old information.  Also, each
center is locally established, and locally run so drawing conclusions about
the NFB as a whole also doesn't seem appropriate to me.

Dave

At 06:17 PM 11/2/2008, you wrote:
>I can't go along with that, I'm afraid.
>Teaching cane travel is fine, however when I investigated one of the 
>centers 10 years ago I was told I'd have to leave my dog in my 
>apartment the whole eight hours of daily training and I could go during
lunch to walk my dog.
>That's unacceptable as I suspect the ADA covers the NFB as well, unless 
>the NFB centers are in another country all their own.
>I would really have no problem if I were told to leave my dog or it 
>were suggested that during cane travel times I leave the dog but not 
>the whole day. I was given the strong impression that the dog shouldn't 
>even be in the building.
>
>
>
>This is really thee type of thing which I find disturbing and would 
>make a casual observer conclude that the NFB is anti-dog.
>
>Once at a guide dog division meeting, in 1996 specifically, I heard 
>Peggy Elliot  suggest that guide dog training should be shorter in 
>duration. Well, then maybe the NFB center doesn't need to have training
lasting nine months.
>Perhaps it isn't so far-fetched to think that you might be able to go 
>to the NFB center for things you need brush up on.
>
>There are reputable training facilities such as the vocational  center 
>in Daytona Beach, Fl. Where, though they offer excellent service, they 
>somehow don't find having a guide dog on the premises in contradiction 
>to teaching skills that you might need in rehab.
>
>There's more to say but since this gets my dander up I'll stop.
>
>I suspect I've made my point and none of you will change my opinion, 
>and we'll agree to disagree.
>
>
>Cordially,
>
>Dan W. and the happy hounds
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>Behalf Of Meghan Whalen
>Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:50 PM
>To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nfb centers and guide dogs
>
>I understand where everyone is coming from in some ways, but, if you 
>only want certain training, then you go somewhere where you can get 
>that specific training.  If you go to college, or you go to job 
>training, you don't get to pick and choose what you would like to do.  
>These programs offer cane travel.  You sign up knowing that.  If it was 
>listed as mobility training, there would be reason for upset, but it is 
>listed as white cane training.  I love my dog, but she is not a white 
>cane, therefore, if I signed up somewhere that offered white cane 
>training, I would not expect that I would get to work with her during 
>said training.  These centers are not a personal attack on dog users.  It
is not insulting that they do not teach dog travel.
>
>If I signed up to go to Leader Dog, I would not expect that they would 
>train me in Cane Skills, I would go in expecting to get training using 
>a dog as my mobility aid.
>
>That said, I'm not sure that I would go to an NFB center while I had a 
>dog, because I agree it's really not fare on the dog.  Likewise, I 
>would not attend training with a dog if I knew I was going to return 
>home and use my white cane most of the time.
>
>Just my thoughts,
>Meghan
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:56 AM
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nfb centers and guide dogs
>
>
> > As far as I'm concerned, the NFB center attitude on the use of guide 
> > dogs during training is ridiculous.
> >
> > J.M.O.
> >
> > Dan Weiner
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> > Behalf Of Jennie Facer
> > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:58 AM
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] Nfb centers and guide dogs
> >
> > Hi Hope,
> >
> > I am not going to say that the centers are very guide dog friendly, 
> > but they will let you take them.  I think you have to alternate 
> > classes some with your dog and some with your cane.  Yes you do need 
> > to take white cane classes, because it never hurts to have your cane 
> > skills up to par just in case there is a problem and you can't work 
> > your dog.
> >
> > HTH
> >
> > Jenn
> >
> > TO THE WORLD YOU ARE SOMEONE, BUT TO SOMEONE YOU ARE THE WORLD!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> > Behalf Of Hope Paulos
> > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 6:39 PM
> > To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> > Subject: [nagdu] Nfb centers and guide dogs
> >
> > Hi all.  I have a friend who is attending an Nfb center.  He doesn't 
> > have a guide dog though.  I'm curious, how tollerant are the  
> > centers about allowing students to bring their guide dogs to the 
> > centers and to classes?
> > Also, if you're already well-traveled, (using a guide dog), is it 
> > required that you take white cane instruction?
> > I'm just curious.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Hope and Beignet
> >
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