[nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership

Marion & Martin swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Mon Apr 27 18:12:00 UTC 2009


Sherri,
    There is a way that we can influence the ownership policies of schools 
... the same way we can influence any entity whose goods or services we 
consume! Go elsewhere! As has been stated frequently on this topic, we do 
have a choice! Exercising that choice sends a clear and convincing message!

Fraternally,
marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership


> Marion, Your point is well-taken, and you're right, if it weren't for us, 
> there would be no need for guide dog schools. I am with you and agree on 
> ownership of our dogs. I was just trying to point out reasons why some 
> schools might not be granting that at this time. I do hope that Leader 
> will change its policy.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
>
>> Sherri,
>>    The Lighthouses for the Blind, Division of Blind Services, and other 
>> rehabilitation agencies operate on ublic funding, as well. Would you 
>> propose that we allow them to treat us in an arbitrary manner without any 
>> accountability to the consumers and their elected representatives? If the 
>> Division of Blind Services had a Consumer Advisory Council and refused to 
>> seat a member of the National Federation of the Blind because they 
>> believed we would not agree with their positions, should they be allowed 
>> to do so?
>>    I am of the opinion that the primary stakeholder of a guide dog school 
>> is the consumer, not the donors. Each school raises monies with the 
>> premise that they are "helping the blind". Most even assert (though I 
>> disagree) that they give the blind "dignity". If it were not for us, the 
>> blind, they would not be providing their services. Furthermore, many 
>> dedicated graduates raise funds for the programs from which they have 
>> graduated, so we are stakeholders in that sense, as well!
>>
>> Fraternally,
>> Marion Gwizdala-Schoch
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>>
>>
>>> Janine, I totally agree that your points are very well-taken. for most 
>>> people, ownership of the dog is probably a good thing, but there are 
>>> those people. Then you have to consider that most guide dog schools 
>>> operate and exist because of the donations of private entities. 
>>> Therefore, looking at the issue from both sides of the desk is a valid 
>>> and worthwhile thing to do.
>>>
>>> Sherri
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I 
>>>> am
>>>> very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
>>>> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
>>>> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon 
>>>> graduation.
>>>> I know GDF did so.
>>>>
>>>> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some 
>>>> type of
>>>> custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog 
>>>> and
>>>> hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
>>>> involved?
>>>>
>>>> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
>>>> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide 
>>>> dog.
>>>> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
>>>>
>>>> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused 
>>>> their
>>>> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope 
>>>> that
>>>> no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
>>>> enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
>>>> Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd 
>>>> wager
>>>> do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be 
>>>> taken
>>>> away.
>>>>
>>>> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
>>>> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
>>>> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was,  how did 
>>>> this
>>>> person get a dog to begin with?
>>>>
>>>> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
>>>> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before 
>>>> the
>>>> incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from 
>>>> their
>>>> donors and others over the incident though.
>>>>
>>>> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally, 
>>>> I'll
>>>> reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
>>>>
>>>> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
>>>> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection 
>>>> from
>>>> me, why have I been accepted for training?
>>>>
>>>> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle 
>>>> situations in
>>>> which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally 
>>>> owned?
>>>>
>>>> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we 
>>>> would
>>>> consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the 
>>>> animal
>>>> control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse 
>>>> allegations,
>>>> even when they are legitimate.
>>>>
>>>> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog 
>>>> is too
>>>> much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as 
>>>> a
>>>> child and that may not be kindly.
>>>>
>>>> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint 
>>>> about a
>>>> grad?
>>>>
>>>> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
>>>> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage 
>>>> though
>>>> of complaints that are valid.
>>>>
>>>> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if 
>>>> you
>>>> found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
>>>>
>>>> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that 
>>>> the
>>>> schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on 
>>>> that
>>>> one. <grin>
>>>>
>>>>>From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may 
>>>>>cause
>>>> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
>>>> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of 
>>>> these
>>>> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or 
>>>> another.
>>>> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. 
>>>> Yet, if
>>>> the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she 
>>>> wants.
>>>> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed 
>>>> with
>>>> another person.
>>>>
>>>> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
>>>> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any 
>>>> team
>>>> over time?
>>>>
>>>> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing 
>>>> questions
>>>> as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the 
>>>> desk.
>>>> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes 
>>>> those
>>>> people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
>>>> Jenine Stanley
>>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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