[nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership

[Sherri]

Marion, Your point is well-taken, and you're right, if it weren't for us, 
there would be no need for guide dog schools. I am with you and agree on 
ownership of our dogs. I was just trying to point out reasons why some 
schools might not be granting that at this time. I do hope that Leader will 
change its policy.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2009 5:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership


> Sherri,
>    The Lighthouses for the Blind, Division of Blind Services, and other 
> rehabilitation agencies operate on ublic funding, as well. Would you 
> propose that we allow them to treat us in an arbitrary manner without any 
> accountability to the consumers and their elected representatives? If the 
> Division of Blind Services had a Consumer Advisory Council and refused to 
> seat a member of the National Federation of the Blind because they 
> believed we would not agree with their positions, should they be allowed 
> to do so?
>    I am of the opinion that the primary stakeholder of a guide dog school 
> is the consumer, not the donors. Each school raises monies with the 
> premise that they are "helping the blind". Most even assert (though I 
> disagree) that they give the blind "dignity". If it were not for us, the 
> blind, they would not be providing their services. Furthermore, many 
> dedicated graduates raise funds for the programs from which they have 
> graduated, so we are stakeholders in that sense, as well!
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion Gwizdala-Schoch
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>
>
>> Janine, I totally agree that your points are very well-taken. for most 
>> people, ownership of the dog is probably a good thing, but there are 
>> those people. Then you have to consider that most guide dog schools 
>> operate and exist because of the donations of private entities. 
>> Therefore, looking at the issue from both sides of the desk is a valid 
>> and worthwhile thing to do.
>>
>> Sherri
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 3:35 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Devil's advocate on ownership
>>
>>
>>> Before I pose this question, or series of questions, let me say that I 
>>> am
>>> very in favor of full ownership, if not for everyone directly upon
>>> graduation, very soon thereafter. I recall in the 1990's, a number of
>>> schools did change their policies to afford full ownership upon 
>>> graduation.
>>> I know GDF did so.
>>>
>>> That said, why have some schools changed their policies back to some 
>>> type of
>>> custody or arrangement by which the school has legal title to the dog 
>>> and
>>> hence the ability to take the dog back without other entities being
>>> involved?
>>>
>>> I think things began to get a little tense, and I have no citations for
>>> this, just a gut feeling, when the man in Pennsylvania killed his guide 
>>> dog.
>>> Sorry, can't remember off the top of my head when that took place.
>>>
>>> Over the years, even Seeing eye has had some grads who have abused their
>>> dogs to the point that legal intervention was necessary. I would hope 
>>> that
>>> no one sets out to abuse a dog. Many habitual abusers can fake it well
>>> enough to get through training and aftercare visits though. The man in
>>> Pennsylvania certainly did this. He had a host of other issues, as I'd 
>>> wager
>>> do most people who abuse their dogs to the point that the dog must be 
>>> taken
>>> away.
>>>
>>> This percentage of abusers is minuscule in terms of applicants and
>>> graduates, but who do you remember? The big question about the man who
>>> killed his dog, beyond how could someone do such a thing, was,  how did 
>>> this
>>> person get a dog to begin with?
>>>
>>> That's not really fair to Leader as he looked fine to them up until he
>>> killed the dog. In fact, an instructor did a home visit a month before 
>>> the
>>> incident. Leader got a lot of bad press and questions, I'd wager, from 
>>> their
>>> donors and others over the incident though.
>>>
>>> Did they over react by changing their ownership policy? Professionally, 
>>> I'll
>>> reserve opinion on that one, but I fully understand their reasoning.
>>>
>>> It is disturbing to hear such revisions couched in language about
>>> "protecting the dogs." If I am that bad and the dog needs protection 
>>> from
>>> me, why have I been accepted for training?
>>>
>>> That said, if you ran a guide dog school, how would you handle 
>>> situations in
>>> which you saw people abusing or neglecting dogs that they legally owned?
>>>
>>> Often the local animal cruelty laws have conditions well above what we 
>>> would
>>> consider cruel or neglectful for a working dog. This means that the 
>>> animal
>>> control officers or courts often won't touch guide dog abuse 
>>> allegations,
>>> even when they are legitimate.
>>>
>>> Let's face it. There are people for whom working and caring for a dog is 
>>> too
>>> much. There are people who may treat a dog the way they were treated as 
>>> a
>>> child and that may not be kindly.
>>>
>>> What would you do if someone from the public called in a complaint about 
>>> a
>>> grad?
>>>
>>> We all know that most complaints are simple misunderstandings or over
>>> reactions to appropriate corrections. There are that small percentage 
>>> though
>>> of complaints that are valid.
>>>
>>> How would you investigate such a complaint? What would you then do if 
>>> you
>>> found that the dog was being abused or neglected?
>>>
>>> I often hear guide dog handlers say after publicized abuse events that 
>>> the
>>> schools have the right to protect the dogs. See my opinion above on that
>>> one. <grin>
>>>
>>>>From a school's point of view, another dynamic is occurring that may 
>>>>cause
>>> policy changes. Many people are no longer accepting any dog and are
>>> returning or retiring dogs that are not suitable for them. Many of these
>>> dogs may truly need to retire from guide work for one reason or another.
>>> Some of them are just not good matches for that particular handler. Yet, 
>>> if
>>> the person owns the dog, he or she can do with it whatever he or she 
>>> wants.
>>> Some people choose to retire a dog who might be reevaluated and placed 
>>> with
>>> another person.
>>>
>>> How would you handle this situation, short of making better matches,
>>> something we all hope happens but something that can change for any team
>>> over time?
>>>
>>> Understand I'm not challenging anyone's position here, just posing 
>>> questions
>>> as to how you might handle things if you were on the other side of the 
>>> desk.
>>> Many of us have been in a class with people we questioned. Sometimes 
>>> those
>>> people are changed by having a dog. Sometimes they sadly are not.
>>> Jenine Stanley
>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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