[nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Sat Aug 29 20:39:58 UTC 2009

Mike,
    I do not disagree with your assertions that we must keep our dogs under 
control at all times. I am not implying that when my dog is out of harness 
in a public place that she is allowed to run free or not be kept under 
control. My only statement is that there is no legal requirement for the 
harness in order to have the right of access with her. however an individual 
wishes to handle (no pun intended) this issue is up to them. My only 
contention is that, harnessed or not, the individual is legally permitted to 
be accompanied by their guide dog.

 ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Hingson" <mhingson at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Hi,

Putting in my two cents none of the instances Marrion described would
concern me at all.  I do like to keep Africa in harness even at work.  She
has learned to relax and has no problem since I have made that part of her
training from the beginning.  When the harness comes off she can, under my
control, interact with the public and play.   Since I interact so much with
the public I have had to use the harness to make a very clear demarcation
between work and non-work.

However, with the harness off so long as Africa is under my control or so
long as we are at home I think the provisions of the law are clear: Africa
is an assistance or service dog.  Some choose to take the harness off at
work or in other situations.  This is fine and their guides are still
covered by the ADA.  My concern is with times the dogs are out of our
control in public places.  Might someone challenge the dog's position as an
assistance or service animal in such cases?  I would like to think not, but
much worse has happened in our court system.  Better to her on the side of
prudence.

The Michael Hingson Group
"Speaking with Vision"
Michael Hingson, President
(415) 827-4084
info at michaelhingson.com
www.michaelhingson.com

for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:44 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

Julie and Listers,
    As Peter has stated, I believe it is important for us to have these
discussions in an effort to more fully understand and protect our rights
under the law. The discussion of whether or not we have the legal or ethical

rights to be accompanied with our dogs when they are out of harness, let's
consider our stays in hotels. During convention, I always give my dog a day
off in the middle of the convention. However, our policy requires us to not
leave our dog unattended in the rooms. Therefore, I allow my dog to
accompany me out of harness. From your perspective, would this be unethical?
    I would also like to pose another scenario. suppose I want to relieve my

dog. Should I be required to harness my dog to take her out if I do not wish

to work her?And, if while I am out, I decide to stop into the restaurant to
get a couple of cups of coffee to take back to my room for merry and me,
should I be restricted from entering into the restaurant if my dog is not in

harness? Does my dog pose any greater threat to those in the restaurant if
she is not in harness?
    While I am at work and the dog is lying under my desk, should I be
required to keep my dog in harness to satisfy some ethical consideration?
Some schools and even more users train their dogs to guide on leash without
the harness.  Again, if I am at work and wish to get a drink or step outside

for some fresh air, should I be required to put the harness on my dog?
    I am asking these questions to be argumentative, but in a positive way,
like an argument between debaters. What each of us does in this respect is
our own business. What we consider "ethical" is only conformance to the
unenforceable!This discussion will help clarify this issue for all of us. It

can also demonstrate that we can have differing opinions without being
disrespectful.

fraternally yours,
Marion

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness

> Cindy,
>
> Marion is correct, legally no harness is required to gain public access.
> It is the training that makes a service dog, not the equipment.
>
> The ADA doesn't distinguish the different types of service dogs...service
> dogs for people in wheelchairs, hearing alert dogs etc. The ADA defines a
> service animal as any specially trained animal whose trained behavior
> mitigates the disability of it's handler.  A guide dog is one type of
> service animal as defined in the ADA.
>
> A hearing alert dog doesn't need any sort of special equipment to do it's
> job.    The equipment needs of different types of service dogs  vary quite

> a bit and even with the same type of service dog the equipment still
> varies with the specific needs of the handler.
>
> All that said, I still have ethical issues with taking a guide dog into
> public places with no harness and not using the dog as a guide.
>
> JMHO
> Julie
>
>
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>
>
>>I don't see how the harness cannot be required. If what you are saying is
>> true, then anybody can march into anywhere without a harness. You could
>> have
>> a well behaved dog, or an under achieer for a service dog, and who would
>> know the difference? I don't mean to be argumentative because you may
>> well
>> know more about this than do I, but that seems like it wouldn't make
>> sense.
>> No school ever told me that I had to have a harness on either; and TSE
>> encourages taking the thing off when you are on the plane, especially
>> with
>> young dogs. I leave mine on because it seems so cramped to get it back
>> on,
>> specially when the flights I have are so close together.
>>
>> Cindy Lou
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:09 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] The Requirement of a Harness
>>
>>
>> Angie,
>>    Do you know which airlines have such a policy? Although an airline may
>> make such a policy, there is no such requirement in law. If I chose to
>> travel with my dog out of harness using my white cane, the airline could
>> not
>> deny me access. The harness does not make a service dog; its training
>> does.
>> Some service animals do not wear harnesses and their owners still have
>> the
>> right of access with their dogs
>>    Everyone needs to be aware that, even though the schools tell us
>> otherwise, we are not required to have our dogs in harness in order to be
>> afforded the right of access with them. There is nothing in the Federal
>> law
>> requiring a service animal be harnessed. In spite of the fact that some
>> state laws require this, such laws are unenforceable.
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:31 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Quick-release handles: was Air Charters and the extra
>> seat
>>
>>
>>> Wayne,
>>>
>>> This kind of experience is one reason I hope The Seeing Eye will
>>> consider
>>> ways to provide us with quick-release handles. If we can simply remove
>>> the
>>> harness handle, it will easily fit in the space between a window seat
>>> and
>>> the inside wall of the plane. This will allow both the human and dog to
>>> enjoy more room while they fly, while reducing the chances that a flight
>>> attendant would seek to remove the harness from the dog's owner.
>>>
>>> Also, some airline policies state that the dog must remain in harness at
>>> all
>>> times. If we had a quick-release handle, we could comply with such
>>> policies
>>> while gaining a bit more leg/dog room.
>>>
>>> I don't know how you feel about quick-release handles, but if you agree
>>> with
>>> me, I hope you will consider relating this experience to someone at
>>> Seeing
>>> Eye as a reason to consider quick-release handles.
>>>
>>> Angie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Wayne Merritt
>>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:15 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Air Charters and the extra seat
>>>
>>> I think he's referring to a part of airline history in the eighties
>>> where the airlines tried to take or in some cases took canes away from
>>> blind people, claiming that they were dangerous and could fly up and
>>> hit someone if something were to happen to the plane. Though I missed
>>> this part of airline history in my travels, I've still been asked a
>>> few times by flight attendants to give up my cane. I even explained to
>>> one persont that the cane was securely between my window seat and the
>>> inside wall of the plane; in other words, it wasn't going anywhere.
>>> I'm sad to say that I have been pushed into giving up my cane, with
>>> the flight attendant in question assuring me that she would put my
>>> cane in the closet at the front of the plane during the flight, but
>>> this has happened a very few times, thankfully.
>>>
>>> I did have one similar experience in my recent Florida travels, when
>>> they were trying to acccommodate my seating arrangement on one of
>>> those smaller express jets, where I had to give up my dog's harness. I
>>> chose not to make an issue of it since I was able to get a seat with
>>> potentially more room in the first class area, though we are still
>>> talking of those smaller jets. I was reminded of of the incidents of
>>> giving up canes though and wondered if giving up a harness was
>>> similar. Sadly, it does sound familiar to me. I was able to get the
>>> harness back when leaving the plane, but I still felt like something
>>> was violated by having to give up the harness. I tried to show the
>>> flight attendant that it was secure against the wall of the plane, but
>>> no dice. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Hth,
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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