[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Julie J julielj at windstream.net
Thu Dec 31 20:37:10 UTC 2009 

Albert,

Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money.  The Seeing Eye 
charges $150 for your first guide from there.  Noah's Assistance Dogs 
charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog.  Some blind people choose to use 
a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars.  I do know of a 
couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts for their 
guide dogs.  Owner trainers financial investments vary considerably.  If you 
purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands.  Add in the 
cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and other 
incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on top of the 
cost of the dog.

You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting place, but that 
individuals are still being denied access.  I'd like to point out that civil 
rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older than the ADA 
and those groups still experience discrimination.  It has only been about 20 
years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in that 
time.  Social change isn't going to happen overnight.

You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything.  I 
commend you for  being so diligent about learning.  I really think reading 
everything you possibly can from
http://www.nfb.org
especially the older more historical documents will help you understand what 
blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past.  I think it might 
help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the beliefs that 
we do.   We understand what has been tried, what worked and what didn't. 
I've been legally blind for around 17 years now.  Many of the people on this 
list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire life.  We 
are all still learning.

If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of Independence" 
it's available at the NFB site I linked above.  This article helped me 
immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness skills to 
living in the real world.

HTH
Julie


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


>I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as has been
> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog.  I am new to
> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide guides 
> free
> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it is to be,
> must be determined independently and not by any individual school, but by 
> a
> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the skill set
> sufficient to create a certification  program which would better ensure 
> well
> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification has 
> impacted
> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel that
> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how we as a
> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and promising 
> for
> all.  I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I do not
> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers and others 
> is
> a cost of those looking for the certification and education sufficient
> enough to be considered a professional in their respective arenas. I see 
> how
> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from, but as
> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores and
> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about the ADA
> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>
> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
> CEO/Founder
> My Blind Spot, Inc.
> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
> New York, New York  10004
> www.myblindspot.org
> PH: 917-553-0347
> Fax: 212-858-5759
> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
> doing it."
>
>
> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
> Albert,
>
> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap out of 
> me.
>
> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have brought up
> are my issues as well.
>
> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to certification, but
> rather the implementation of that certification.   As of yet I have not 
> seen
>
> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair, unbiased and
> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers.  If someone can
> convince me that their program for implementing certification will not 
> cost
> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up.  Until then I'm a "no
> certification" gal.
>
> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification comes from 
> the
>
> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to "help" 
> the
> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other stupidity.  I am 
> not
>
> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but I am old
> enough to know lots of other blind people who were.   Agencies offering
> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness services do not
> have a good track record.  Really I like the current laws and would rather
> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new ones 
> that
> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms for blind
> people.
>
> JMO, a'course
> Julie
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>
>
>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a scotch.  Well
>> why
>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by individual
>> schools, rather then an independent  body comprised of end users an
>> professionals from the field?  Anything different would most certainly
>> appear self serving  for those schools to determined who is or is not a
>> certified trainer.  I am not supporting that dogs be certified, but that
>> the
>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified and
>> trained
>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference, a state
>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide to be
>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they will
>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.  Is that
>> not
>> proper?  I mean there is significant training that goes into a guide 
>> prior
>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that position? I 
>> am
>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be sufficiently
>> trained
>> in areas where public accommodation  as defined under the ADA are
>> afforded?
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> Albert,
>>
>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained.  She did not train
>> herself.  If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me know.
>> It'd save me quite a bit of work.  Grin!
>>
>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access training
>> for quite some time.  I have known an owner trainer to train the guide
>> work on streets and in places where the general public is allowed to
>> bring their pets.  In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs are
>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>
>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>
>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the word
>> "certified."  I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams.  I think
>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own trainers
>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs not be
>> involved in certifying my dog.
>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said.  I do not
>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights of
>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>
>>
>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>> -- Coretta Scott King
>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>
>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>
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