[nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. forBlind's guidedog policy does not discriminate

Hope Paulos hope.paulos at maine.edu
Sat Feb 21 01:07:43 UTC 2009 

As soon as they ease up on their policies, I'll be on my way to 
attend a  program!

> ----- Original Message -----
>From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Date sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:42:25 -0500
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept.  forBlind's	guidedog	
policy	does	not discriminate

>Oh, I love NFB's philosophy, I love the structured discovery 
method, I love
>NFB.  that does not mean I agree with everything NFB does just as 
I don't
>always agree with family, friends, and so on, and that's okay and 
the
>centers' policy concerning guide dogs is one I do not agree with 
as it is
>presented today.  I hope they ease up a bit at some point.

>margo and Elmo
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Hope Paulos" <hope.paulos at maine.edu
>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog 
Users"
><nagdu at nfbnet.org>; <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 7:01 PM
>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept.  for Blind's guidedog 
policy does
>not discriminate


>> margo! Ithink you're right on! I could not agree more! I've been 
avoiding
>> takingtraining at the NFB centers because I'mn 
willingffsacrifice the use
>> of mydogddI like the structured discovery method of teaching 
that the
>> centers use, but they should maketheir programs more 
individualized.  If I
>> use a dog, it's likely I would not want to receive o and m 
training with
>> the cane.  Since I've received approximately 22 years of it 
andonly 4
>> years with my guide.  A college is individualized- yeseay 
hfftake certain
>> classes in order to obtain a particularmajor, but you can choose 
the
>> major.
>> Just mzopinion.
>> Hope and Beignet

>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net
>>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users"<nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>Date sent: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:59:09 -0500
>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept.  for Blind's guidedog
>> policy does not discriminate

>>>But, one must take each person as an individual.  if a person
>> already  is
>>>willing to use a cane and it's noted that he or she uses the cane
>> and he or
>>>she can also use a guide dog, then he or she should use the guide
>> dog if
>>>that is her or his preferred method of travel.

>>>I think our centers would do well to be more flexible and not try
>> to mold
>>>everyone into one mold.

>>>margo and Elmo
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "JULIE PHILLIPSON" <jbrew48 at verizon.net
>>>To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users"
>>><nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 11:18 PM
>>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept.  for Blind's guide dog
>> policy does
>>>not discriminate


>>>> Angie I'll take a shot at this although I might be being too
>> brave to do
>>>> so!
>>>> Anything that helps by visual means is being referred to as a
>> visual aid,
>>>> so that could be a machine like a CCTV a magnifying device or a
>> human
>>>> sighted guide and in this case it is a guide dog because your
>> dog is
>>>> helping you by using his her ability to see.
>>>> What the NFB centers are doing is eliminating help from any
>> other visual
>>>> means and making you learn to tune into your own abilities to
>> gather the
>>>> same kinds of information and learn to trust and depend on
>> yourself and
>>>> only yourself without the confusion of in adequate vision.  .
>>>> When someone is first learning or relearning travel skills they
>> are
>>>> learning much more than just traveling with a cane.  they are
>> also building
>>>> and strengthening confidence and self respect.  They discover
>> that they
>>>> have regained independent mobility, and eventually are still
>> able to do
>>>> all the things they could do before losing vision.  Once someone
>> has
>>>> established that sense of confidence and can travel competently,
>> on an
>>>> emotional level you have proved to yourself that you can
>> accomplish what
>>>> ever you want to do.  It didn't just happen in a week or a month
>> it took
>>>> lots of time to carefully build that confidence and trust in
>> yourself.
>>>> For example think of something that you feel you are really good
>> at, and
>>>> think about what you had to do to achieve that competence.  How
>> did you
>>>> feel about yourself once you reached your goal?  Pride, ability
>> to move on
>>>> to accomplishing other things? You could even compare it to
>> graduating
>>>> from school.  You don't just become a psychologist, or a lawyer
>> in a short
>>>> period of time.  You had to work at it and practice it, and do
>> it often
>>>> like learning to ride a bike or play an instrument.  The more
>> you did it
>>>> the better you got at it right?
>>>> It is the same with learning to do anything even to use a cane
>> or a guide
>>>> dog.  When you are learning to use a cane you might stubble on
>> an uneven
>>>> surface or miss a step but I'll bet you just learned how not to
>> do it
>>>> again! You notice the differences in the sound that your cane
>> makes and
>>>> you start being more careful paying attention to traffic sounds
>> as you
>>>> approach the corner.  When you use a dog and skip the cane
>> altogether you
>>>> figure oh my dog will take care of it and stop when I get to the
>> corner so
>>>> I don't need to think about it right?  You don't give yourself
>> the chance
>>>> to develop your own awareness to the environment.  You learned
>> to be
>>>> overly dependent on your dog, not working as a team, and putting
>> way too
>>>> much pressure and stress on the dog.  When you miss that step
>> you don't
>>>> take responsibility for it being your own mistake, no you
>> correct the dog
>>>> and blame it on him or her!  By skipping the learning to use a
>> cane step
>>>> you are cheating yourself and being unfare to the dog.
>>>> When you get a dog for the first time you didn't all of a sudden
>> know how
>>>> to do it perfectly, in fact it takes several weeks of training
>> and then
>>>> sometimes months after that to feel comfortable and trust in
>> your dog, but
>>>> it still took a lot of hard work to accomplish that goal.

>>>> Now the use of sleep shades is a whole other issue.  Like I said
>> before
>>>> you are eliminating the confusion of poor vision and tuning into
>> your
>>>> other senses.  If someone has residual vision I can't tell you
>> how many
>>>> times I have thought I knew what I was seeing only to find out
>> it wasn't
>>>> at all what I thought it was.  Is that a pot hole or just a dark
>> patch of
>>>> blacktop coming up?  Is that door open or is it a glass door
>> that is
>>>> closed.  How long am I going to feel around looking for the door
>> handle or
>>>> visually find the door bell.  Once you start learning to do
>> these kinds of
>>>> things without the help of poor vision it becomes much simpler.
>> I think
>>>> this is probably hard for a congenitally blind person to
>> understand
>>>> because it has simply never been in their experience.  I have
>> never been
>>>> trained or used sleep shades and I don't think I would ever like
>> to.  What
>>>> I have done many times is closed my eyes and trusted my other
>> senses to
>>>> figure something out.  That is a hard thing to do, and most of
>> us would
>>>> not want to or perhaps even be able to do it voluntarily.  Most
>> of us
>>>> blind and visually impaired folks have simply never gotten
>> adequate
>>>> mobility training.  There is a shortage of mobility instructors
>> and there
>>>> is neither the time or money to give mobility the time it
>> deserves.
>>>> Somehow some of us get good at it on our own or perhaps got
>> lucky and did
>>>> have a good mobility instructor who was able to teach something
>> and
>>>> managed to somehow give you the confidence to transfer those
>> skills to
>>>> other situations, but many times that just doesn't happen for
>> lots of
>>>> reasons.  OK let me know how well I have explained it or how
>> much I've
>>>> screwed up! (grin)
>>>> Julie Phillipson
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Angie Matney" <leadinglabbie at mpmail.net
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 6:56 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept.  for Blind's guide dog
>> policy does
>>>> not discriminate


>>>>> Would someone please explain this nonstandard use of the term
>> "visual
>>>>> aid" to me? My dog is not a powerpoint presentation.

>>>>> Thanks,

>>>>> Angie





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