[nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

Sun Feb 22 09:54:52 UTC 2009

Marsha, you are correct on this. At the state training center where I
work, we see a fair number of the newly blinded, but we also see a lot
of the blind that have been blind for much of their lives. Sometimes
it can surprise you as to who is more adjusted to their blindness, and
other times it doesn't. As you say though, there are lots of other
factors in play, and I don't think that we can take this one slice of
the pie and decern whether or not someone is "well adjusted" based on
their acceptance of their blindness alone. Though certainly it is a
significant portion of the equation.

Wayne

On 2/22/09, Marsha <queen.marsha.lindsey at gmail.com> wrote:
> Those of us that are in the NFB, can be in the NFB and do not always have to
> agree with some of the things the NFB does. That would be saying that either
> political party we agree with all the time. We must take what we believe and
> do what we think is best and go with it. I will be the first to say that
> there are some things that I just sit back and scratch my head in confusion
> on why the NFB did such and such, but this also does not mean I am not going
> to continue to work for equality.
>
> So Dan go ahead and voice your disagreements, we do have a voice, even if we
> are NFB'ers.
> Marsha
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Dan Weiner
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:41 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide
> dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate
>
> Well, Marion.
>
> I respect you a lot and have since I met you low twenty years ago.
> I certainly continue to respect you.
> But, I'm afraid I don't buy the Center's position on the use of guide dogs
> and do find it unreasonable.
>
> Apparently the motto "we are the blind leading the blind" means, "We are the
> blind telling all the blind what to do".
>
> Now, Dan, what do you really think?--smile
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Dan W.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:28 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
> Dan,
>     I'm not sure if you have the entire picture correct. I don't think the
> basis of this law suit was that the student could not bring the dog into the
> center. I believe the suit was that the student wanted to be accompanied by
> her guide dog during training and not be required to take cane travel
> classes. The question was posed on another list and I wrote a message in
> reply. Pasted below is my message.
>
> Shannon,
>     I will refer back to my earlier message regarding whether or not schools
> require O&M instruction before being accepted for training. As to your other
> question about substituting one O&M instruction for another, perhaps an
> analogy from our mutual experience will help.
>     I notice you have an MSW. I have an MS in Mental Health Counseling. In
> my undergraduate program I took a Research Methods class. I also took a
> Research Methods class in graduate school. now, I could have argued with the
> school that I had already had Research Methods and didn't need to take it
> again. Of course, my arguments would not have been accepted as the
> requirement to take their class is part of their program. Furthermore, the
> level, scope, and complexity of the class was very different in graduate
> school than it was in undergraduate classes. Can you understand how this
> applies to this issue?
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
>
>> The Iowa Center, I presume, is in the United States and there is an
>> ADA and state laws here, it's not an island unto itself.
>>
>> If the Iowa Center were called the Iowa Cane Center, and only cane
>> training and no other skill were offered, than maybe I could see it.
>> Still I would advocate for the dog being allowed to accompany the
>> individual on the premises.
>>
>> Laws aren't just made for the rest of the world, blind training
>> centers must abide by them, too.
>>
>> Referring to the dog as a visual aid  is misleading.  Obviously, the
>> dog sees, if the dogs were b lined we probably wouldn't be using
> them--smile.
>> Every guide dog program teaches us that we're supposed to give
>> commands to our dogs, I assume.
>>
>> The guide dog issue, or rather what I perceive the NFB leadership's
>> approach to the guide dog issue, is the one serious divergence I have
>> with the Federation.  This is from someone who got involved when he
>> was a teen-ager.
>>
>> Well, also I'm not favorably inclined to the NFB's position on audible
>> pedestrian signals, also, but that's another subject.
>>
>> The obsession with white cane travel and the tacit implication that
>> those who don't use a cane are somehow less capable, together with
>> what I've seen as a tendency to discourage people from saying anything
>> glowing about the dog while glorifying the cane doesn't sit well with
>> me.
>>
>> The guide dog and the cane are different mobility aids.  I personally
>> believe the dog to be superior for my situation and my type of travel,
>> There are things I can do easily with a dog that I would be
>> hard-pressed to do with a cane, such as cross streets in a straight
>> line.
>> Anyway, I've gone a bit beyond the question you posed, Rebecca.  My
>> short answer is that, as I said state rehab centers and even NFB
>> centers should, and in my opinion, must accommodate access with a
>> guide dog.  I view it as an access issue and access denial.  Could it
>> be  that some people discourage the use of guide dogs because they,
>> the dogs,  see and for no other reason?
>> I'm not sure that's true, but I'm posing the question to stir up the
>> pot a bit.
>> My personal approach to life isn't to prove that I'm able to do things
>> all the time independently, I mean without help.
>>
>> I would say that as an adult, I do have some idea of what my skills
>> are and if I felt my cane skills are adequate, wanted to work my dog,
>> and received a closed-minded  access denial, I would be loathe to
>> patronize such a program.
>> What would happen if I just wanted to attend such a program, for say,
>> my computer skills?
>>
>> Now, for the record, nothing in this post is meant to cast aspersions
>> on any of my list friends, these are just my opinions, strongly held
>> ones, of course.
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Dan W.
>>
>>
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