[nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

Mon Feb 23 13:33:32 UTC 2009

Dan,
    With all due respect, I nor no one else in the NFB is telling you what 
to think. We are only offering our opinions, You have just as much right to 
your opinion as I I also think that there is a lot more to it than most 
understand; therefore, we are going to have an in-depth discussion of this 
issue during our national convention. I hope you and many others will choose 
to join us in Detroit and hear from the ICB and the NFB training centers.

Fraternally,
Marion

do to mine!

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide 
dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

> Well, Marion.
>
> I respect you a lot and have since I met you low twenty years ago.
> I certainly continue to respect you.
> But, I'm afraid I don't buy the Center's position on the use of guide dogs
> and do find it unreasonable.
>
> Apparently the motto "we are the blind leading the blind" means, "We are 
> the
> blind telling all the blind what to do".
>
> Now, Dan, what do you really think?--smile
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Dan W.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:28 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
> Dan,
>    I'm not sure if you have the entire picture correct. I don't think the
> basis of this law suit was that the student could not bring the dog into 
> the
> center. I believe the suit was that the student wanted to be accompanied 
> by
> her guide dog during training and not be required to take cane travel
> classes. The question was posed on another list and I wrote a message in
> reply. Pasted below is my message.
>
> Shannon,
>    I will refer back to my earlier message regarding whether or not 
> schools
> require O&M instruction before being accepted for training. As to your 
> other
> question about substituting one O&M instruction for another, perhaps an
> analogy from our mutual experience will help.
>    I notice you have an MSW. I have an MS in Mental Health Counseling. In
> my undergraduate program I took a Research Methods class. I also took a
> Research Methods class in graduate school. now, I could have argued with 
> the
> school that I had already had Research Methods and didn't need to take it
> again. Of course, my arguments would not have been accepted as the
> requirement to take their class is part of their program. Furthermore, the
> level, scope, and complexity of the class was very different in graduate
> school than it was in undergraduate classes. Can you understand how this
> applies to this issue?
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
>
>> The Iowa Center, I presume, is in the United States and there is an
>> ADA and state laws here, it's not an island unto itself.
>>
>> If the Iowa Center were called the Iowa Cane Center, and only cane
>> training and no other skill were offered, than maybe I could see it.
>> Still I would advocate for the dog being allowed to accompany the
>> individual on the premises.
>>
>> Laws aren't just made for the rest of the world, blind training
>> centers must abide by them, too.
>>
>> Referring to the dog as a visual aid  is misleading.  Obviously, the
>> dog sees, if the dogs were b lined we probably wouldn't be using
> them--smile.
>> Every guide dog program teaches us that we're supposed to give
>> commands to our dogs, I assume.
>>
>> The guide dog issue, or rather what I perceive the NFB leadership's
>> approach to the guide dog issue, is the one serious divergence I have
>> with the Federation.  This is from someone who got involved when he
>> was a teen-ager.
>>
>> Well, also I'm not favorably inclined to the NFB's position on audible
>> pedestrian signals, also, but that's another subject.
>>
>> The obsession with white cane travel and the tacit implication that
>> those who don't use a cane are somehow less capable, together with
>> what I've seen as a tendency to discourage people from saying anything
>> glowing about the dog while glorifying the cane doesn't sit well with
>> me.
>>
>> The guide dog and the cane are different mobility aids.  I personally
>> believe the dog to be superior for my situation and my type of travel,
>> There are things I can do easily with a dog that I would be
>> hard-pressed to do with a cane, such as cross streets in a straight
>> line.
>> Anyway, I've gone a bit beyond the question you posed, Rebecca.  My
>> short answer is that, as I said state rehab centers and even NFB
>> centers should, and in my opinion, must accommodate access with a
>> guide dog.  I view it as an access issue and access denial.  Could it
>> be  that some people discourage the use of guide dogs because they,
>> the dogs,  see and for no other reason?
>> I'm not sure that's true, but I'm posing the question to stir up the
>> pot a bit.
>> My personal approach to life isn't to prove that I'm able to do things
>> all the time independently, I mean without help.
>>
>> I would say that as an adult, I do have some idea of what my skills
>> are and if I felt my cane skills are adequate, wanted to work my dog,
>> and received a closed-minded  access denial, I would be loathe to
>> patronize such a program.
>> What would happen if I just wanted to attend such a program, for say,
>> my computer skills?
>>
>> Now, for the record, nothing in this post is meant to cast aspersions
>> on any of my list friends, these are just my opinions, strongly held
>> ones, of course.
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Dan W.
>>
>>
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