[nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guidedogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at verizon.net
Tue Feb 24 20:37:17 UTC 2009
Hi, Sherri and all.
Another component to this issue is that many colleges offer continuing
education classes for people who maybe want to learn computers or cooking or
some type of craft.
Why can't the NFB centers offer this type of training? Why is it all or
nothing? In these cases, what's wrong with the person bringing their dog to
a Braille or computer class? How is the presence of a dog in these classes
negatively impacting how a person learns Braille or computers?
I'm sorry, I just don't get the connection between the NFB cane and
adjustment to blindness. One doesn't automatically imply the other, and
this idea that one isn't fully adjusted to blindness until they've been
immersed in the NFB philosophy is insulting to me. I am more than just a
blind person. And my blindness is defined by much more than how I choose to
travel. No one has the right to make assumptions about anyone's adjustment
to blindness based on which travel method they use as long as the person is
getting from point A to point B safely.
Honestly, I find this knee-jerk reaction that some NFB folks, most notably ,
the ones in leadership positions have toward those of us using a dog or
questioning why a dog can't be integrated into an NFB center disturbing on
so many levels. If it were a sighted person making these pronouncements,
they would be called custodial. But have a person in a leadership capacity
make the same statement and it becomes something that's not really up for
debate. Or when it is up for debate, those of us questioning it are told
once more that we just don't get it.
What is there to get? The leadership has shown repeatedly that they don't
understand working with a dog. This is the fundamental problem here, IMO.
One uses orientation skills whether or not one is using a cane or dog. In
fact, I'd say that orientation, using ambient and traffic noise, the
position of the sun, etc., are more important when using a dog. I've known
hard line cane users who become disoriented if their cane doesn't make
contact with a light pole or trash can when they think it should. So how is
this a good example of cane use?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one in the leadership, with the exception of
Fred Schroeder, has done any research into the fundamental differences and
similarities between cane and dog travel. If they had, they couldn't imply
that using a dog is like sighted guide. It isn't, and we know it isn't.
And yet, this misperception is allowed to color their NFB center policies
and has for as long as I can remember.
I've been to three national conventions and seven state conventions in two
different states and the national reps always have at least one sighted
companion. Why? If anyone questions those in leadership about their
reasoning for sighted guide, that old speech about the Nature of
Independence is trotted out to justify why so many leaders use sighted
companions at state and national conventions.
Wouldn't it be more in line with the NFB philosophy to travel to a state
convention independently and use a cane, along with a cell phone or laptop
to keep in touch with national headquarters and family? this is how the
rest of us do it, except some of us use dogs rather than canes.
It's almost like some people view going sighted guide as some kind of badge
of honor. If you've gone through an NFB training center and have presumably
adjusted to your blindness, it's now Okay to use sighted guide to get around
so you can get to meetings on time.
This is exactly the type of hypocrisy that has caused so many of us to leave
the NFB or at least to not participate as actively as we would like. Why
should I want to stay in an organization where my attitude toward blindness
and the NFB is being called into question simply because I use a dog or I
don't automatically accept a policy.
We shouldn't have to experience this type of discord in an organization who
claims to represent America's blind. There are so many issues that are more
crucial for us to tackle. Instead, we're expending energy trying to make
our elected leaders accept us. I have skills and talents I can put to use
in organizations who actually see me as a whole person rather than someone
that needs improvement simply because I don't use a cane as my primary mode
of travel.
I have many more thoughts on this issue, but those are it in a nut shell.
And now, I and my dog, which I own, by the way, are going for a brisk walk.
Lisa
Lisa Belville
Attention: I have a new Email address:
missktlab1217 at verizon.net
Lisa Belville
Attention: I have a new Email address:
missktlab1217 at verizon.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sherri" <flmom2006 at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's
guidedogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate
> Marion and all,
>
> Apparently, there is much more to this situation than we are aware of.
> Whether we agree with their decision or not, I think before making a final
> judgment it is good to look at all sides of the situation.
>
> Here's an analogy that helped me work through some of this. Say you are
> going to college and you want to major in a specific field, but you don't
> think the requirements are fair. You just can't come in and say that you
> want to take only specific classes or have specific course requirements.
> It is governed by the college or university, just as these policies are
> governed by the individual centers. One of the things we are fortunate to
> have is legal freedom of choice. If we don't like one center's standards
> or qualifications, there are many others to choose from. Under the law, we
> are not locked into any one center's program for our training.
>
> Sherri
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide
> dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate
>
>
>> Dan,
>> With all due respect, I nor no one else in the NFB is telling you what
>> to think. We are only offering our opinions, You have just as much right
>> to your opinion as I I also think that there is a lot more to it than
>> most understand; therefore, we are going to have an in-depth discussion
>> of this issue during our national convention. I hope you and many others
>> will choose to join us in Detroit and hear from the ICB and the NFB
>> training centers.
>>
>> Fraternally,
>> Marion
>>
>> do to mine!
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide
>> dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate
>>
>>
>>> Well, Marion.
>>>
>>> I respect you a lot and have since I met you low twenty years ago.
>>> I certainly continue to respect you.
>>> But, I'm afraid I don't buy the Center's position on the use of guide
>>> dogs
>>> and do find it unreasonable.
>>>
>>> Apparently the motto "we are the blind leading the blind" means, "We are
>>> the
>>> blind telling all the blind what to do".
>>>
>>> Now, Dan, what do you really think?--smile
>>>
>>>
>>> Cordially,
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marion & Martin
>>> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:28 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog
>>> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>>>
>>> Dan,
>>> I'm not sure if you have the entire picture correct. I don't think
>>> the
>>> basis of this law suit was that the student could not bring the dog into
>>> the
>>> center. I believe the suit was that the student wanted to be accompanied
>>> by
>>> her guide dog during training and not be required to take cane travel
>>> classes. The question was posed on another list and I wrote a message in
>>> reply. Pasted below is my message.
>>>
>>> Shannon,
>>> I will refer back to my earlier message regarding whether or not
>>> schools
>>> require O&M instruction before being accepted for training. As to your
>>> other
>>> question about substituting one O&M instruction for another, perhaps an
>>> analogy from our mutual experience will help.
>>> I notice you have an MSW. I have an MS in Mental Health Counseling.
>>> In
>>> my undergraduate program I took a Research Methods class. I also took a
>>> Research Methods class in graduate school. now, I could have argued with
>>> the
>>> school that I had already had Research Methods and didn't need to take
>>> it
>>> again. Of course, my arguments would not have been accepted as the
>>> requirement to take their class is part of their program. Furthermore,
>>> the
>>> level, scope, and complexity of the class was very different in graduate
>>> school than it was in undergraduate classes. Can you understand how this
>>> applies to this issue?
>>>
>>> Fraternally,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog
>>> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>>>
>>>
>>>> The Iowa Center, I presume, is in the United States and there is an
>>>> ADA and state laws here, it's not an island unto itself.
>>>>
>>>> If the Iowa Center were called the Iowa Cane Center, and only cane
>>>> training and no other skill were offered, than maybe I could see it.
>>>> Still I would advocate for the dog being allowed to accompany the
>>>> individual on the premises.
>>>>
>>>> Laws aren't just made for the rest of the world, blind training
>>>> centers must abide by them, too.
>>>>
>>>> Referring to the dog as a visual aid is misleading. Obviously, the
>>>> dog sees, if the dogs were b lined we probably wouldn't be using
>>> them--smile.
>>>> Every guide dog program teaches us that we're supposed to give
>>>> commands to our dogs, I assume.
>>>>
>>>> The guide dog issue, or rather what I perceive the NFB leadership's
>>>> approach to the guide dog issue, is the one serious divergence I have
>>>> with the Federation. This is from someone who got involved when he
>>>> was a teen-ager.
>>>>
>>>> Well, also I'm not favorably inclined to the NFB's position on audible
>>>> pedestrian signals, also, but that's another subject.
>>>>
>>>> The obsession with white cane travel and the tacit implication that
>>>> those who don't use a cane are somehow less capable, together with
>>>> what I've seen as a tendency to discourage people from saying anything
>>>> glowing about the dog while glorifying the cane doesn't sit well with
>>>> me.
>>>>
>>>> The guide dog and the cane are different mobility aids. I personally
>>>> believe the dog to be superior for my situation and my type of travel,
>>>> There are things I can do easily with a dog that I would be
>>>> hard-pressed to do with a cane, such as cross streets in a straight
>>>> line.
>>>> Anyway, I've gone a bit beyond the question you posed, Rebecca. My
>>>> short answer is that, as I said state rehab centers and even NFB
>>>> centers should, and in my opinion, must accommodate access with a
>>>> guide dog. I view it as an access issue and access denial. Could it
>>>> be that some people discourage the use of guide dogs because they,
>>>> the dogs, see and for no other reason?
>>>> I'm not sure that's true, but I'm posing the question to stir up the
>>>> pot a bit.
>>>> My personal approach to life isn't to prove that I'm able to do things
>>>> all the time independently, I mean without help.
>>>>
>>>> I would say that as an adult, I do have some idea of what my skills
>>>> are and if I felt my cane skills are adequate, wanted to work my dog,
>>>> and received a closed-minded access denial, I would be loathe to
>>>> patronize such a program.
>>>> What would happen if I just wanted to attend such a program, for say,
>>>> my computer skills?
>>>>
>>>> Now, for the record, nothing in this post is meant to cast aspersions
>>>> on any of my list friends, these are just my opinions, strongly held
>>>> ones, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Cordially,
>>>>
>>>> Dan W.
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
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