[nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

Tue Feb 24 19:09:34 UTC 2009

Marion, 
How do you know what Dan or "most" understand? 
Isn't this the same patronizing attitude NFB finds so distasteful among
people who can see? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Marion & Martin
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 8:34 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide
dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

Dan,
    With all due respect, I nor no one else in the NFB is telling you
what to think. We are only offering our opinions, You have just as much
right to your opinion as I I also think that there is a lot more to it
than most understand; therefore, we are going to have an in-depth
discussion of this issue during our national convention. I hope you and
many others will choose to join us in Detroit and hear from the ICB and
the NFB training centers.

Fraternally,
Marion

do to mine!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide
dogpolicydoesnotdiscriminate

> Well, Marion.
>
> I respect you a lot and have since I met you low twenty years ago.
> I certainly continue to respect you.
> But, I'm afraid I don't buy the Center's position on the use of guide 
> dogs and do find it unreasonable.
>
> Apparently the motto "we are the blind leading the blind" means, "We 
> are the blind telling all the blind what to do".
>
> Now, Dan, what do you really think?--smile
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Dan W.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Marion & Martin
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 7:28 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog 
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
> Dan,
>    I'm not sure if you have the entire picture correct. I don't think 
> the basis of this law suit was that the student could not bring the 
> dog into the center. I believe the suit was that the student wanted to

> be accompanied by her guide dog during training and not be required to

> take cane travel classes. The question was posed on another list and I

> wrote a message in reply. Pasted below is my message.
>
> Shannon,
>    I will refer back to my earlier message regarding whether or not 
> schools require O&M instruction before being accepted for training. As

> to your other question about substituting one O&M instruction for 
> another, perhaps an analogy from our mutual experience will help.
>    I notice you have an MSW. I have an MS in Mental Health Counseling.

> In my undergraduate program I took a Research Methods class. I also 
> took a Research Methods class in graduate school. now, I could have 
> argued with the school that I had already had Research Methods and 
> didn't need to take it again. Of course, my arguments would not have 
> been accepted as the requirement to take their class is part of their 
> program. Furthermore, the level, scope, and complexity of the class 
> was very different in graduate school than it was in undergraduate 
> classes. Can you understand how this applies to this issue?
>
> Fraternally,
> Marion
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 2:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Jury finds IA Dept. for Blind's guide dog 
> policydoesnotdiscriminate
>
>
>> The Iowa Center, I presume, is in the United States and there is an 
>> ADA and state laws here, it's not an island unto itself.
>>
>> If the Iowa Center were called the Iowa Cane Center, and only cane 
>> training and no other skill were offered, than maybe I could see it.
>> Still I would advocate for the dog being allowed to accompany the 
>> individual on the premises.
>>
>> Laws aren't just made for the rest of the world, blind training 
>> centers must abide by them, too.
>>
>> Referring to the dog as a visual aid  is misleading.  Obviously, the 
>> dog sees, if the dogs were b lined we probably wouldn't be using
> them--smile.
>> Every guide dog program teaches us that we're supposed to give 
>> commands to our dogs, I assume.
>>
>> The guide dog issue, or rather what I perceive the NFB leadership's 
>> approach to the guide dog issue, is the one serious divergence I have

>> with the Federation.  This is from someone who got involved when he 
>> was a teen-ager.
>>
>> Well, also I'm not favorably inclined to the NFB's position on 
>> audible pedestrian signals, also, but that's another subject.
>>
>> The obsession with white cane travel and the tacit implication that 
>> those who don't use a cane are somehow less capable, together with 
>> what I've seen as a tendency to discourage people from saying 
>> anything glowing about the dog while glorifying the cane doesn't sit 
>> well with me.
>>
>> The guide dog and the cane are different mobility aids.  I personally

>> believe the dog to be superior for my situation and my type of 
>> travel, There are things I can do easily with a dog that I would be 
>> hard-pressed to do with a cane, such as cross streets in a straight 
>> line.
>> Anyway, I've gone a bit beyond the question you posed, Rebecca.  My 
>> short answer is that, as I said state rehab centers and even NFB 
>> centers should, and in my opinion, must accommodate access with a 
>> guide dog.  I view it as an access issue and access denial.  Could it

>> be  that some people discourage the use of guide dogs because they, 
>> the dogs,  see and for no other reason?
>> I'm not sure that's true, but I'm posing the question to stir up the 
>> pot a bit.
>> My personal approach to life isn't to prove that I'm able to do 
>> things all the time independently, I mean without help.
>>
>> I would say that as an adult, I do have some idea of what my skills 
>> are and if I felt my cane skills are adequate, wanted to work my dog,

>> and received a closed-minded  access denial, I would be loathe to 
>> patronize such a program.
>> What would happen if I just wanted to attend such a program, for say,

>> my computer skills?
>>
>> Now, for the record, nothing in this post is meant to cast aspersions

>> on any of my list friends, these are just my opinions, strongly held 
>> ones, of course.
>>
>> Cordially,
>>
>> Dan W.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%4
>> 0
>> verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein
> .cnc.n
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40
> verizon.net

_______________________________________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nagdu:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rebecca.pickrell%
40ngc.com