[nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Wed Jun 17 20:15:48 UTC 2009

This does indeed help/explain. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Heather Hutchison
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 6:14 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Hi,

I got my dog from a school in Canada, but the CEO was a guide dog
instructor in Europe, so we follow very similar philosophies in terms of
off leash time. While I wouldn't say that it is mandatory for graduates
to provide their dogs with this time, it is very strongly encouraged
that we continue to allow our dogs off-leash playtime.

 From a young puppy my dog got lots of off-leash experience with her
raiser, going on walks through the woods or visiting dog parks and she
enjoys similar activities now that she's working. Off-leash recall and
obedience is stressed as very important and I always continue trying to
improve and maintain it. While I don't want her running out the door, I
think she'd be less likely to just keep on running and more apt to
listen when I call her than dogs who have never experienced the freedom
of off-leash time. I also believe that it helps with her in harness
distractions, especially when it comes to dogs, because strange dogs are
not an unknown or very occasional occurance for her (we visit the dog
park three or four times a week). It is not fully fenced, but is well
back from the road and I know her well enough to know that she is
extremely unlikely to stray far enough away to get herself into trouble
with cars. She is incredibly well socialized around other dogs, and her
play behavior is excellent. She is, however, a lab that loves to eat,
and can pick up stupid things, be a brat and not listen (not so much now
that she is older) roll in mud puddles (I never have plans that involve
going anywhere in public directly after the dog park) etc. The school
realizes the dangers of off-leash time, even for a well-trained dog who
has grown up with this freedom, and we get plenty of practice during
class at visiting dog parks and learning how to minimize the dangers of
having our dogs off- leash, and we learn ways of making sure they stay
close and continue to watch us (like hide-and-seek). But in the end, the
small chance that something bad may happen is a price to pay for what
the school feels are more balanced dogs. I notice a difference in my
dog's work when she's gotten to burn off some energy at the park; she is
content to do her job and is extra focussed on her work since she has
gotten all her sillyness out during her off-leash time. It is strongly
encouraged that we bring a sighted person with us to the park; a friend,
family member, dog walker etc. While this isn't a perfect solution I do
understand where they are coming from and I find the dog park more fun
with a friend anyway.

We seem to allow our dogs more off leash time at home as well. We were
never provided with a tie-down or any device to keep the dog in one
place. Their explanation for this was that they believe that they should
know the dog well enough by the point it goes out as a guide and any
dogs with poor house manners would be removed from the program. Of
course we are still expected to keep a close eye on our dogs, especially
at the beginning of the partnership, but they don't feel that tie-downs
are necessary.

These are my observations about the differences between schools in these
countries; while I'm not from Europe I hope this helps. I really believe
that in our situation, giving my dog off-leash time is really what she
needs and it works well for us; I definitely do understand others
reservations about it though and I think it is up to each handler to
determine what they are comfortable with. I plan to always allow my dogs
off-leash time as I have seen and strongly believe in the benefits to
the dog and the team that this time provides.

Heather with Bibby
On 29-May-09, at 10:24 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS) wrote:

> Right but I still want to know how and why the Europeans do off-leash 
> time and why it seems to be manditory. Why are American and European 
> standards and codes of conduct so different?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Garry and Joy Relton
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:52 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> I think it isn't necessarily manners that is a problem. The warning of

> not having dogs run off leash has to do with unexpected distractions.
> Also, there is an issue of them picking up things and injesting 
> something that could harm or kill them. I love to play with my dog in 
> our enclosed back yard and still have to work to ensure that she 
> remembers that she must come when called. The level of concentration 
> of a dog guide is simply different in harness than out of harness. 
> Also, they are dogs.
>
> I do agree with you that dogs need down time and play. Just like two 
> legged people. (grin)
>
> Joy with Belle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:44 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
>
> As long as I keep Mitzi trimmed short, she's very easy to clean up.  I

> just use a damp wash cloth on her before I put on her work clothes.
> /smile/  And I brush her regularaly, although not so much as I should,

> especially when she's really short after a cut.  I just have to 
> remember not to take her to run in the muddy park before I stop by the

> grocery store if I don't have a towel and wet ones with me.  /lol/  
> She always looks fine to me.
>
> Dogs that run loose, even in small towns, can have drastically short 
> life spans, although they learn the dangers and the smart ones live as

> long as more protected dogs.  Although I have heard of packs of street

> dogs hanging about the parks and cafes of European cities, visiting 
> with the people.
>
> I would think a guide dog would require more structured off-leash time

> and would have to have good enough off-leash manners to stay in bounds

> and not get itself done in.  As for keeping track of it, you can put a

> bell or listen to the jingle on the collar.  I can hear Mitzi from 
> quite a ways away in a park setting, and I've come to know her 
> particular jingle even when other dogs have similar tags and jingles.

> When I can't hear her, I call her back, although that can be fodder 
> for teasing when there are other peole and dogs around.  Every now and

> then I used to suddenly notice I didn't hear her jingling and would 
> call out to her in alarm and get all ancy and OMG!  Where is she?  
> What's happened to her?
> /lol/  Finally someone would say in a voice heavy with suppressed 
> laughter, "She's beside you.  About three inches from your right 
> hand."
> So I would reach out, and she would move around to my other side, and 
> it would become a game, with the people telling me where she was while

> she stayed just out of reach and refused to jingle.  When I asked if 
> she was grinning, someone would say, "Oh, yeah.  She's messing with 
> you."  / lol/ Mitzi has been very good for my humility.
>
> I'll have to look up those European guide dogs.  I also keep hearing 
> tales of poodle guides everywhere in France, but I have been unable to

> verify the truth of that one, either.  /smile/
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:26 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> Tami,
> I do tend to agree with you and have seen the same thing.
> Thing is, a suburban dog can't be both an outdoor dog and be clean 
> enough for people to want it around doing suburban things, going out 
> to eat, being kept indoors, stuff like that.
> Also, I think outdoor dogs and dogs allowed to run free had shorter 
> lifespans then a suburban Fido would because more accidents have the 
> potential to happen.
> Would still love to hear from European guide dog users about off-leash

> time.
> Seems that it is required if you want a guide dog in Europe to ensure 
> they have off-leash time. If so, how is this managed at the end-user 
> level? Are you provided with trustworthy sighted assistance? Are there

> more open spaces for a dog to run?
> Is there anybody out there?anybody?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:03 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> Rebecca,
>
> I don't know about Europe, but since I grew up in the uncivilized 
> rural part of the west, I get really huffy about all the city 
> rules/laws/customs that don't acknowledge that dogs are dogs.  Also 
> the assumption that any dog not on leash is going to automatically 
> cause trouble or get itself killed.
> When
> I point out the "under control" side of most leash laws, people just 
> seem to think that means having the dog tied to you by a leash.  Out 
> in the small towns, of course, dogs pretty much run around at will, 
> and they're expected to have reasonable manners while they're doing it

> and to not get themselves hit by cars.  It happens, of course, but 
> usually because the driver is speeding or not watching out.  Drivers 
> are expected, informally, at least, to watch out for dogs, cats, cows,

> horses, flocks of sheep, etc., as they are for kids.  Or as city 
> drivers are for bikes.
>
> So maybe it's just a cultural difference in how dogs are seen, like 
> the difference between our American cultural view and the Islamic 
> view, in which they are unclean just by being dogs.
>
> Dogs are such social animals, and they have had long years of being 
> social with humans, so I think that letting them be dogs in a human 
> society is fine, as long as the humans aren't weird about it.  If a 
> human can't be responsible for his/her dog, then blame the human, not 
> the dog.  Of course, once the human has ruined the dog, the dog does 
> have to be dealt with.
> Sigh.
> But where I grew up the social consequences of not knowing how to be 
> with your dog are pretty harsh.  /smile/
>
> Of course, more urban environments do require different habits and 
> ways of managing any animal, or kid, or bicycle.  On the busy road we 
> walk along or cross to get to our favorite playground, it would be 
> madness to not have a death grip on the leash, with a few extra wraps 
> around the wrist just to be sure...  Sometimes when we're back in less

> hazardous territory, it takes me forever to escape the leash myself.  
> Letting a dog run through a mall at will -- especially if there's a 
> food court -- would create havoc, especially if everyone did it.  Then

> again, if the dogs are all conditioned socially not to raid the food 
> court and if the people are used to having dogs walk around in that 
> context, I suppose it could work...  Dunno.
>
> Well, those are just some thougts.  It's an interesting question.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:45 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> I find this interesting too.
> I think, and I'd really like input from European folks on this that 
> dogs are allowed to run off-leash for the following reasons; 1. There 
> are more places for both pet as well as working dogs to run safely, 
> i.e. not as much traffic of either human or vehicular nature.
> 2. The expectation is that sighted help and sighted help of an 
> appropriate nature is always obtainable at the time it is needed.
> Anybody want to talk to this?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf Of Julie J
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:00 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> I find it interesting that guide dogs in other countries are allowed 
> to run off leash.  the programs there train a totally reliable recall 
> with a whistle.
>
> Monty has an amazing recall.  But I really can't claim credit, he came

> to me with it.  I've just practiced it.  He has gotten out three 
> times, I think.
> I just call him and he comes immediately to me at top speed.
>
> Julie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
>
>> Tami,
>>
>> I agree with you about lots of off leash time for training purposes.
> I
>> think, sometimes, especially with assistance dogs that off leash   
>> time
> is
>> such a rare treat that when a dog gets loose he is too busy
> experiencing
>> all those fun things like sniffing and running free and  doing those 
>> things is not as rewarding as returning to the handler.
>>
>> I work on recall from day one with my dogs, and make the recall a 
>> very
>
>> high-value exercise.
>>
>> Also with my border collie, I did some herding and I needed to be 
>> able
> to
>> call her off of the sheep to return to me; training her to do this 
>> ensured she has a fantastic recall.
>>
>> I do think it's important to keep dogs secured etc. but accidents do 
>> happen, sadly.
>>
>>
>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>
>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC. "Life breaks

>> us all, but afterwards, many of us are strongest at the broken 
>> places." -- Ernest Hemingway  pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>
>> MSN: Brisomania at Hotmail.com
>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
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