[nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Thu Jun 18 17:49:29 UTC 2009

For those of you who use the European method of off-leash time, do you
also have a setup to bathe your dog? Or do you have a standing date with
a dog bather? 
And, how do you find qualified sighted assistance? Just because someone
can see and likes dogs, doesn't mean they'd make a good spotter when
Fido is having off-leash time. 
I ask because I do think off-leash time does have merrit
The differences in expectations and training and method of useage
between cultures/countries intrigues me.  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Linda Gwizdak
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:41 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Hi Heather,
I also heard about the British doing this at their guide dog school. I
think there's merit to the practise of teaching the dogs how to behave
off leash. 
American trained guide dogs are never off leash and they go nuts when
they fiind themselves off leash.

One of my dogs was puppy raised in the northern Midwest where she was
living on a cattle farm. She spent lots of time off leash with the
family and she learned to come when called and she didn't stray too far
away from her family.  I used to bring this dog to an off leash park
where she could run and play - and swim! She always came to me when I
called her. Being off leash wasn't a novelty to her like it is to most
of our dogs - Landon included!

We don't want to just chuck our dogs outside by themselves off leash for
obvious reasons. But it would be nice to have a dog who has learned how
to handle themselves off leash in case we drop the leash!

Landon blows me off when he is out running loose - in a fenced in area -
and I couldn't let him off leash in an unfenced area like Dog Beach or a
dog park. So, we don't do those activities.

Linda and Landon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather Hutchison" <heather at heather-hutchison.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

> Hi,
>
> I got my dog from a school in Canada, but the CEO was a guide dog 
> instructor in Europe, so we follow very similar philosophies in terms
of 
> off leash time. While I wouldn't say that it is mandatory for
graduates 
> to provide their dogs with this time, it is very strongly  encouraged
that 
> we continue to allow our dogs off-leash playtime.
>
> From a young puppy my dog got lots of off-leash experience with her 
> raiser, going on walks through the woods or visiting dog parks and she

> enjoys similar activities now that she's working. Off-leash recall and

> obedience is stressed as very important and I always continue trying
to 
> improve and maintain it. While I don't want her running out the  door,
I 
> think she'd be less likely to just keep on running and more  apt to
listen 
> when I call her than dogs who have never experienced the  freedom of 
> off-leash time. I also believe that it helps with her in  harness 
> distractions, especially when it comes to dogs, because  strange dogs
are 
> not an unknown or very occasional occurance for her  (we visit the dog

> park three or four times a week). It is not fully  fenced, but is well

> back from the road and I know her well enough to  know that she is 
> extremely unlikely to stray far enough away to get  herself into
trouble 
> with cars. She is incredibly well socialized  around other dogs, and
her 
> play behavior is excellent. She is,  however, a lab that loves to eat,
and 
> can pick up stupid things, be a  brat and not listen (not so much now
that 
> she is older) roll in mud  puddles (I never have plans that involve
going 
> anywhere in public  directly after the dog park) etc. The school
realizes 
> the dangers of  off-leash time, even for a well-trained dog who has
grown 
> up with this  freedom, and we get plenty of practice during class at 
> visiting dog  parks and learning how to minimize the dangers of having
our 
> dogs off- leash, and we learn ways of making sure they stay close and 
> continue  to watch us (like hide-and-seek). But in the end, the small 
> chance  that something bad may happen is a price to pay for what the 
> school  feels are more balanced dogs. I notice a difference in my
dog's 
> work  when she's gotten to burn off some energy at the park; she is 
> content  to do her job and is extra focussed on her work since she has

> gotten  all her sillyness out during her off-leash time. It is
strongly 
> encouraged that we bring a sighted person with us to the park; a
friend, 
> family member, dog walker etc. While this isn't a perfect  solution I
do 
> understand where they are coming from and I find the dog  park more
fun 
> with a friend anyway.
>
> We seem to allow our dogs more off leash time at home as well. We were

> never provided with a tie-down or any device to keep the dog in one 
> place. Their explanation for this was that they believe that they
should 
> know the dog well enough by the point it goes out as a guide  and any
dogs 
> with poor house manners would be removed from the  program. Of course
we 
> are still expected to keep a close eye on our  dogs, especially at the

> beginning of the partnership, but they don't  feel that tie-downs are 
> necessary.
>
> These are my observations about the differences between schools in
these 
> countries; while I'm not from Europe I hope this helps. I really
believe 
> that in our situation, giving my dog off-leash time is really  what
she 
> needs and it works well for us; I definitely do understand  others 
> reservations about it though and I think it is up to each  handler to 
> determine what they are comfortable with. I plan to always  allow my
dogs 
> off-leash time as I have seen and strongly believe in  the benefits to
the 
> dog and the team that this time provides.
>
> Heather with Bibby
> On 29-May-09, at 10:24 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS) wrote:
>
>> Right but I still want to know how and why the Europeans do off-leash
>> time and why it seems to be manditory. Why are American and European
>> standards and codes of conduct so different?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Garry and Joy Relton
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:52 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> I think it isn't necessarily manners that is a problem. The warning
of
>> not having dogs run off leash has to do with unexpected distractions.
>> Also, there is an issue of them picking up things and injesting
>> something that could harm or kill them. I love to play with my dog in
>> our enclosed back yard and still have to work to ensure that she
>> remembers that she must come when called. The level of concentration
of
>> a dog guide is simply different in harness than out of harness. Also,
>> they are dogs.
>>
>> I do agree with you that dogs need down time and play. Just like two
>> legged people. (grin)
>>
>> Joy with Belle
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:44 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>>
>> As long as I keep Mitzi trimmed short, she's very easy to clean up.
I
>> just use a damp wash cloth on her before I put on her work clothes.
>> /smile/  And I brush her regularaly, although not so much as I
should,
>> especially when she's really short after a cut.  I just have to
remember
>> not to take her to run in the muddy park before I stop by the grocery
>> store if I don't have a towel and wet ones with me.  /lol/  She
always
>> looks fine to me.
>>
>> Dogs that run loose, even in small towns, can have drastically short
>> life spans, although they learn the dangers and the smart ones live
as
>> long as more protected dogs.  Although I have heard of packs of
street
>> dogs hanging about the parks and cafes of European cities, visiting
with
>> the people.
>>
>> I would think a guide dog would require more structured off-leash
time
>> and would have to have good enough off-leash manners to stay in
bounds
>> and not get itself done in.  As for keeping track of it, you can put
a
>> bell or listen to the jingle on the collar.  I can hear Mitzi from
quite
>> a ways away in a park setting, and I've come to know her particular
>> jingle even when other dogs have similar tags and jingles.  When I
can't
>> hear her, I call her back, although that can be fodder for teasing
when
>> there are other peole and dogs around.  Every now and then I used to
>> suddenly notice I didn't hear her jingling and would call out to her
in
>> alarm and get all ancy and OMG!  Where is she?  What's happened to
her?
>> /lol/  Finally someone would say in a voice heavy with suppressed
>> laughter, "She's beside you.  About three inches from your right
hand."
>> So I would reach out, and she would move around to my other side,
and it
>> would become a game, with the people telling me where she was while
she
>> stayed just out of reach and refused to jingle.  When I asked if she
was
>> grinning, someone would say, "Oh, yeah.  She's messing with you."  /
lol/
>> Mitzi has been very good for my humility.
>>
>> I'll have to look up those European guide dogs.  I also keep hearing
>> tales of poodle guides everywhere in France, but I have been unable
to
>> verify the truth of that one, either.  /smile/
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:26 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> Tami,
>> I do tend to agree with you and have seen the same thing.
>> Thing is, a suburban dog can't be both an outdoor dog and be clean
>> enough for people to want it around doing suburban things, going out
to
>> eat, being kept indoors, stuff like that.
>> Also, I think outdoor dogs and dogs allowed to run free had shorter
>> lifespans then a suburban Fido would because more accidents have the
>> potential to happen.
>> Would still love to hear from European guide dog users about
off-leash
>> time.
>> Seems that it is required if you want a guide dog in Europe to ensure
>> they have off-leash time. If so, how is this managed at the end-user
>> level? Are you provided with trustworthy sighted assistance? Are
there
>> more open spaces for a dog to run?
>> Is there anybody out there?anybody?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:03 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> Rebecca,
>>
>> I don't know about Europe, but since I grew up in the uncivilized
rural
>> part
>> of the west, I get really huffy about all the city rules/laws/customs
>> that
>> don't acknowledge that dogs are dogs.  Also the assumption that any
dog
>> not
>> on leash is going to automatically cause trouble or get itself
killed.
>> When
>> I point out the "under control" side of most leash laws, people just
>> seem to
>> think that means having the dog tied to you by a leash.  Out in the
>> small
>> towns, of course, dogs pretty much run around at will, and they're
>> expected
>> to have reasonable manners while they're doing it and to not get
>> themselves
>> hit by cars.  It happens, of course, but usually because the driver
is
>> speeding or not watching out.  Drivers are expected, informally, at
>> least,
>> to watch out for dogs, cats, cows, horses, flocks of sheep, etc., as
>> they
>> are for kids.  Or as city drivers are for bikes.
>>
>> So maybe it's just a cultural difference in how dogs are seen, like
the
>> difference between our American cultural view and the Islamic view,
in
>> which
>> they are unclean just by being dogs.
>>
>> Dogs are such social animals, and they have had long years of being
>> social
>> with humans, so I think that letting them be dogs in a human society
is
>> fine, as long as the humans aren't weird about it.  If a human can't
be
>> responsible for his/her dog, then blame the human, not the dog.  Of
>> course,
>> once the human has ruined the dog, the dog does have to be dealt
with.
>> Sigh.
>> But where I grew up the social consequences of not knowing how to be
>> with
>> your dog are pretty harsh.  /smile/
>>
>> Of course, more urban environments do require different habits and
ways
>> of
>> managing any animal, or kid, or bicycle.  On the busy road we walk
along
>> or
>> cross to get to our favorite playground, it would be madness to not
have
>> a
>> death grip on the leash, with a few extra wraps around the wrist
just to
>> be
>> sure...  Sometimes when we're back in less hazardous territory, it
takes
>> me
>> forever to escape the leash myself.  Letting a dog run through a
mall at
>> will -- especially if there's a food court -- would create havoc,
>> especially
>> if everyone did it.  Then again, if the dogs are all conditioned
>> socially
>> not to raid the food court and if the people are used to having dogs
>> walk
>> around in that context, I suppose it could work...  Dunno.
>>
>> Well, those are just some thougts.  It's an interesting question.
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:45 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> I find this interesting too.
>> I think, and I'd really like input from European folks on this that
dogs
>> are
>> allowed to run off-leash for the following reasons; 1. There are more
>> places
>> for both pet as well as working dogs to run safely, i.e. not as much
>> traffic
>> of either human or vehicular nature.
>> 2. The expectation is that sighted help and sighted help of an
>> appropriate
>> nature is always obtainable at the time it is needed.
>> Anybody want to talk to this?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:00 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> I find it interesting that guide dogs in other countries are allowed
to
>> run
>> off leash.  the programs there train a totally reliable recall with a
>> whistle.
>>
>> Monty has an amazing recall.  But I really can't claim credit, he
came
>> to me
>> with it.  I've just practiced it.  He has gotten out three times, I
>> think.
>> I just call him and he comes immediately to me at top speed.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>>
>>> Tami,
>>>
>>> I agree with you about lots of off leash time for training purposes.
>> I
>>> think, sometimes, especially with assistance dogs that off leash
time
>> is
>>> such a rare treat that when a dog gets loose he is too busy
>> experiencing
>>> all those fun things like sniffing and running free and  doing those
>>> things is not as rewarding as returning to the handler.
>>>
>>> I work on recall from day one with my dogs, and make the recall a
very
>>
>>> high-value exercise.
>>>
>>> Also with my border collie, I did some herding and I needed to be
able
>> to
>>> call her off of the sheep to return to me; training her to do this
>>> ensured she has a fantastic recall.
>>>
>>> I do think it's important to keep dogs secured etc. but accidents do
>>> happen, sadly.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC. "Life
breaks
>>> us all, but afterwards, many of us are strongest at the broken
>>> places." -- Ernest Hemingway  pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>
>>> MSN: Brisomania at Hotmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
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>>
>>
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