[nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

Thu Jun 18 22:26:26 UTC 2009

My dogs get to run in the fenced yard daily.  I do not let them run off 
leash because I don't really have a good place to let them do that.  Monty 
has a good enough recall to be able to run free.  Belle does not.

They both do however often go places that are muddy and wet.  If it's really 
bad I will hose them off in the yard before coming in the house.  Otherwise 
they just go in the regular bathtub.  I haven't used a groomer for over 15 
years.  That's because I'm cheap and I have dogs with very easy coats to 
care for, no fancy cuts or anything.

HTH
Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car

> For those of you who use the European method of off-leash time, do you
> also have a setup to bathe your dog? Or do you have a standing date with
> a dog bather?
> And, how do you find qualified sighted assistance? Just because someone
> can see and likes dogs, doesn't mean they'd make a good spotter when
> Fido is having off-leash time.
> I ask because I do think off-leash time does have merrit
> The differences in expectations and training and method of useage
> between cultures/countries intrigues me.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Linda Gwizdak
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:41 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> Hi Heather,
> I also heard about the British doing this at their guide dog school. I
> think there's merit to the practise of teaching the dogs how to behave
> off leash.
> American trained guide dogs are never off leash and they go nuts when
> they fiind themselves off leash.
>
> One of my dogs was puppy raised in the northern Midwest where she was
> living on a cattle farm. She spent lots of time off leash with the
> family and she learned to come when called and she didn't stray too far
> away from her family.  I used to bring this dog to an off leash park
> where she could run and play - and swim! She always came to me when I
> called her. Being off leash wasn't a novelty to her like it is to most
> of our dogs - Landon included!
>
> We don't want to just chuck our dogs outside by themselves off leash for
> obvious reasons. But it would be nice to have a dog who has learned how
> to handle themselves off leash in case we drop the leash!
>
> Landon blows me off when he is out running loose - in a fenced in area -
> and I couldn't let him off leash in an unfenced area like Dog Beach or a
> dog park. So, we don't do those activities.
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Heather Hutchison" <heather at heather-hutchison.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I got my dog from a school in Canada, but the CEO was a guide dog
>> instructor in Europe, so we follow very similar philosophies in terms
> of
>> off leash time. While I wouldn't say that it is mandatory for
> graduates
>> to provide their dogs with this time, it is very strongly  encouraged
> that
>> we continue to allow our dogs off-leash playtime.
>>
>> From a young puppy my dog got lots of off-leash experience with her
>> raiser, going on walks through the woods or visiting dog parks and she
>
>> enjoys similar activities now that she's working. Off-leash recall and
>
>> obedience is stressed as very important and I always continue trying
> to
>> improve and maintain it. While I don't want her running out the  door,
> I
>> think she'd be less likely to just keep on running and more  apt to
> listen
>> when I call her than dogs who have never experienced the  freedom of
>> off-leash time. I also believe that it helps with her in  harness
>> distractions, especially when it comes to dogs, because  strange dogs
> are
>> not an unknown or very occasional occurance for her  (we visit the dog
>
>> park three or four times a week). It is not fully  fenced, but is well
>
>> back from the road and I know her well enough to  know that she is
>> extremely unlikely to stray far enough away to get  herself into
> trouble
>> with cars. She is incredibly well socialized  around other dogs, and
> her
>> play behavior is excellent. She is,  however, a lab that loves to eat,
> and
>> can pick up stupid things, be a  brat and not listen (not so much now
> that
>> she is older) roll in mud  puddles (I never have plans that involve
> going
>> anywhere in public  directly after the dog park) etc. The school
> realizes
>> the dangers of  off-leash time, even for a well-trained dog who has
> grown
>> up with this  freedom, and we get plenty of practice during class at
>> visiting dog  parks and learning how to minimize the dangers of having
> our
>> dogs off- leash, and we learn ways of making sure they stay close and
>> continue  to watch us (like hide-and-seek). But in the end, the small
>> chance  that something bad may happen is a price to pay for what the
>> school  feels are more balanced dogs. I notice a difference in my
> dog's
>> work  when she's gotten to burn off some energy at the park; she is
>> content  to do her job and is extra focussed on her work since she has
>
>> gotten  all her sillyness out during her off-leash time. It is
> strongly
>> encouraged that we bring a sighted person with us to the park; a
> friend,
>> family member, dog walker etc. While this isn't a perfect  solution I
> do
>> understand where they are coming from and I find the dog  park more
> fun
>> with a friend anyway.
>>
>> We seem to allow our dogs more off leash time at home as well. We were
>
>> never provided with a tie-down or any device to keep the dog in one
>> place. Their explanation for this was that they believe that they
> should
>> know the dog well enough by the point it goes out as a guide  and any
> dogs
>> with poor house manners would be removed from the  program. Of course
> we
>> are still expected to keep a close eye on our  dogs, especially at the
>
>> beginning of the partnership, but they don't  feel that tie-downs are
>> necessary.
>>
>> These are my observations about the differences between schools in
> these
>> countries; while I'm not from Europe I hope this helps. I really
> believe
>> that in our situation, giving my dog off-leash time is really  what
> she
>> needs and it works well for us; I definitely do understand  others
>> reservations about it though and I think it is up to each  handler to
>> determine what they are comfortable with. I plan to always  allow my
> dogs
>> off-leash time as I have seen and strongly believe in  the benefits to
> the
>> dog and the team that this time provides.
>>
>> Heather with Bibby
>> On 29-May-09, at 10:24 AM, Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS) wrote:
>>
>>> Right but I still want to know how and why the Europeans do off-leash
>>> time and why it seems to be manditory. Why are American and European
>>> standards and codes of conduct so different?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Garry and Joy Relton
>>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:52 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>>
>>> I think it isn't necessarily manners that is a problem. The warning
> of
>>> not having dogs run off leash has to do with unexpected distractions.
>>> Also, there is an issue of them picking up things and injesting
>>> something that could harm or kill them. I love to play with my dog in
>>> our enclosed back yard and still have to work to ensure that she
>>> remembers that she must come when called. The level of concentration
> of
>>> a dog guide is simply different in harness than out of harness. Also,
>>> they are dogs.
>>>
>>> I do agree with you that dogs need down time and play. Just like two
>>> legged people. (grin)
>>>
>>> Joy with Belle
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 12:44 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>>
>>>
>>> As long as I keep Mitzi trimmed short, she's very easy to clean up.
> I
>>> just use a damp wash cloth on her before I put on her work clothes.
>>> /smile/  And I brush her regularaly, although not so much as I
> should,
>>> especially when she's really short after a cut.  I just have to
> remember
>>> not to take her to run in the muddy park before I stop by the grocery
>>> store if I don't have a towel and wet ones with me.  /lol/  She
> always
>>> looks fine to me.
>>>
>>> Dogs that run loose, even in small towns, can have drastically short
>>> life spans, although they learn the dangers and the smart ones live
> as
>>> long as more protected dogs.  Although I have heard of packs of
> street
>>> dogs hanging about the parks and cafes of European cities, visiting
> with
>>> the people.
>>>
>>> I would think a guide dog would require more structured off-leash
> time
>>> and would have to have good enough off-leash manners to stay in
> bounds
>>> and not get itself done in.  As for keeping track of it, you can put
> a
>>> bell or listen to the jingle on the collar.  I can hear Mitzi from
> quite
>>> a ways away in a park setting, and I've come to know her particular
>>> jingle even when other dogs have similar tags and jingles.  When I
> can't
>>> hear her, I call her back, although that can be fodder for teasing
> when
>>> there are other peole and dogs around.  Every now and then I used to
>>> suddenly notice I didn't hear her jingling and would call out to her
> in
>>> alarm and get all ancy and OMG!  Where is she?  What's happened to
> her?
>>> /lol/  Finally someone would say in a voice heavy with suppressed
>>> laughter, "She's beside you.  About three inches from your right
> hand."
>>> So I would reach out, and she would move around to my other side,
> and it
>>> would become a game, with the people telling me where she was while
> she
>>> stayed just out of reach and refused to jingle.  When I asked if she
> was
>>> grinning, someone would say, "Oh, yeah.  She's messing with you."  /
> lol/
>>> Mitzi has been very good for my humility.
>>>
>>> I'll have to look up those European guide dogs.  I also keep hearing
>>> tales of poodle guides everywhere in France, but I have been unable
> to
>>> verify the truth of that one, either.  /smile/
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
>>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:26 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>>
>>> Tami,
>>> I do tend to agree with you and have seen the same thing.
>>> Thing is, a suburban dog can't be both an outdoor dog and be clean
>>> enough for people to want it around doing suburban things, going out
> to
>>> eat, being kept indoors, stuff like that.
>>> Also, I think outdoor dogs and dogs allowed to run free had shorter
>>> lifespans then a suburban Fido would because more accidents have the
>>> potential to happen.
>>> Would still love to hear from European guide dog users about
> off-leash
>>> time.
>>> Seems that it is required if you want a guide dog in Europe to ensure
>>> they have off-leash time. If so, how is this managed at the end-user
>>> level? Are you provided with trustworthy sighted assistance? Are
> there
>>> more open spaces for a dog to run?
>>> Is there anybody out there?anybody?
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 1:03 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>>
>>> Rebecca,
>>>
>>> I don't know about Europe, but since I grew up in the uncivilized
> rural
>>> part
>>> of the west, I get really huffy about all the city rules/laws/customs
>>> that
>>> don't acknowledge that dogs are dogs.  Also the assumption that any
> dog
>>> not
>>> on leash is going to automatically cause trouble or get itself
> killed.
>>> When
>>> I point out the "under control" side of most leash laws, people just
>>> seem to
>>> think that means having the dog tied to you by a leash.  Out in the
>>> small
>>> towns, of course, dogs pretty much run around at will, and they're
>>> expected
>>> to have reasonable manners while they're doing it and to not get
>>> themselves
>>> hit by cars.  It happens, of course, but usually because the driver
> is
>>> speeding or not watching out.  Drivers are expected, informally, at
>>> least,
>>> to watch out for dogs, cats, cows, horses, flocks of sheep, etc., as
>>> they
>>> are for kids.  Or as city drivers are for bikes.
>>>
>>> So maybe it's just a cultural difference in how dogs are seen, like
> the
>>> difference between our American cultural view and the Islamic view,
> in
>>> which
>>> they are unclean just by being dogs.
>>>
>>> Dogs are such social animals, and they have had long years of being
>>> social
>>> with humans, so I think that letting them be dogs in a human society
> is
>>> fine, as long as the humans aren't weird about it.  If a human can't
> be
>>> responsible for his/her dog, then blame the human, not the dog.  Of
>>> course,
>>> once the human has ruined the dog, the dog does have to be dealt
> with.
>>> Sigh.
>>> But where I grew up the social consequences of not knowing how to be
>>> with
>>> your dog are pretty harsh.  /smile/
>>>
>>> Of course, more urban environments do require different habits and
> ways
>>> of
>>> managing any animal, or kid, or bicycle.  On the busy road we walk
> along
>>> or
>>> cross to get to our favorite playground, it would be madness to not
> have
>>> a
>>> death grip on the leash, with a few extra wraps around the wrist
> just to
>>> be
>>> sure...  Sometimes when we're back in less hazardous territory, it
> takes
>>> me
>>> forever to escape the leash myself.  Letting a dog run through a
> mall at
>>> will -- especially if there's a food court -- would create havoc,
>>> especially
>>> if everyone did it.  Then again, if the dogs are all conditioned
>>> socially
>>> not to raid the food court and if the people are used to having dogs
>>> walk
>>> around in that context, I suppose it could work...  Dunno.
>>>
>>> Well, those are just some thougts.  It's an interesting question.
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IS)
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:45 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>>
>>> I find this interesting too.
>>> I think, and I'd really like input from European folks on this that
> dogs
>>> are
>>> allowed to run off-leash for the following reasons; 1. There are more
>>> places
>>> for both pet as well as working dogs to run safely, i.e. not as much
>>> traffic
>>> of either human or vehicular nature.
>>> 2. The expectation is that sighted help and sighted help of an
>>> appropriate
>>> nature is always obtainable at the time it is needed.
>>> Anybody want to talk to this?
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Julie J
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 7:00 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>>
>>> I find it interesting that guide dogs in other countries are allowed
> to
>>> run
>>> off leash.  the programs there train a totally reliable recall with a
>>> whistle.
>>>
>>> Monty has an amazing recall.  But I really can't claim credit, he
> came
>>> to me
>>> with it.  I've just practiced it.  He has gotten out three times, I
>>> think.
>>> I just call him and he comes immediately to me at top speed.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 3:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>>
>>>
>>>> Tami,
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you about lots of off leash time for training purposes.
>>> I
>>>> think, sometimes, especially with assistance dogs that off leash
> time
>>> is
>>>> such a rare treat that when a dog gets loose he is too busy
>>> experiencing
>>>> all those fun things like sniffing and running free and  doing those
>>>> things is not as rewarding as returning to the handler.
>>>>
>>>> I work on recall from day one with my dogs, and make the recall a
> very
>>>
>>>> high-value exercise.
>>>>
>>>> Also with my border collie, I did some herding and I needed to be
> able
>>> to
>>>> call her off of the sheep to return to me; training her to do this
>>>> ensured she has a fantastic recall.
>>>>
>>>> I do think it's important to keep dogs secured etc. but accidents do
>>>> happen, sadly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>
>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC. "Life
> breaks
>>>> us all, but afterwards, many of us are strongest at the broken
>>>> places." -- Ernest Hemingway  pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> MSN: Brisomania at Hotmail.com
>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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