[nagdu] $150: Then & now

Wed Mar 4 21:38:04 UTC 2009

Hi, Rebecca.  Don't feel bad.  <smiles>

Honestly, I don't get this whole ownership controversy, either.  Maybe I
would if I attended a school that insisted on follow up or who had a history 
of
removing dogs from their blind handlers.

A year or so ago when this discussion last reared it's ugly head, I posted a
long, rambling comparison between obtaining
ownership of a car and ownership of a guide dog.  I won't repost it here
because it is way too long, but I'm sure it's in the archives if anyone is 
interested or board enough to look for it. <grin>

I understand how some people may feel empowered by paying something toward
the training of their dog, and that's fine.  But in the end, does this fee
really determine how well that person treats or works with their dog?  does
it mean that the school where the dog was obtained and/or the general public 
will think more of them as a blind person?

I have to agree with others who say that paying for a thing doesn't 
necessarily make a person more appreciative or responsible for that item, 
whether it's a living breathing creature or not.

Whether someone pays $150 or nothing to work with a dog who cost around 40 
or 50 grand to breed, raise, and train is immaterial.  I've seen handlers 
from many schools, including the Seeing Eye, and it's been my experience 
that that person will either treat his or her dog well or he or she will 
not.  It doesn't make that person a better handler or a more dignified 
individual simply because they paid a teeny bit of the cost of their dog 
guide or were granted outright ownership upon completion of training.

I've heard that the Seeing Eye doesn't verify how the money is raised just 
as long as the person has that $150.  I'm sure some people, especially 
younger folks going up there for the first time have had that money given to 
them.  I'm sure some people just fork over the money, no matter how they got 
it, just to get a dog.  And, unfortunately, I'm sure there are people who 
acquired that money by less than honest means.

I have to echo Rebecca's question and wonder why The Seeing Eye hasn't 
raised their cost to reflect current economic conditions.  The original 
intent behind this policy may have been honorable, but I'm not sure if this 
miniscule price is still a valid representation of the cost of training.

Because, if the cost isn't adjusted to reflect current economic conditions, 
this fee seems like nothing more than a condescending pat on the head, IMO. 
If you pay only a fraction of the cost of something simply because you're a 
blind person looking to obtain a dog, then it's charity. If you want to 
imply that you or the school is better than the rest of us who  didn't pay 
anything for our dogs (and I've had some vocal TSE grads come right out and 
say just that), have at it if  it makes you feel better, <smiles> but you're 
still taking advantage of charity.  It's like they're saying we know you as 
a blind person could never come up with the tens of thousands of dollars 
needed to breed, raise, and train this dog and then train you, but we know 
how you blind people like to feel like you're a full part of society, so 
we'll let you contribute this small price that's not even one percent of the 
total cost for a dog.  We'll even let  you have ownership of your dog so you 
feel like real adults.

I'm not saying the training or philosophy at the Seeing Eye is Inferior or 
out of line; this is just my interpretation of this policy and how some of 
you seem to hold it up as an example of equal rather than preferential 
treatment.

For my part, I'm conscious of the time, effort, and sacrifice that went into
training Katy every time I snap on that leash.  Whether I paid nothing, $150
or $150,000, a guide dog is always going to mean the same for me.  I didn't
have to pay a fee to attend GDF, but I do help manage their Email list and I 
always try to
promote the school when I can.  No, this isn't the same as writing a check 
to the school, but it works for me.

Lisa

Recession: A period when you go without things your grandparents never heard
of.

Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at verizon.net

Recession: A period when you go without things your grandparents never heard 
of.

Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at verizon.net

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)" <REBECCA.PICKRELL at ngc.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] $150: Then & now

> These posts are interesting.
> Maybe it's me, but I still am not feeling the "I'm required to pay so
> this is more important".
> What *would* give me a sense of value though, and this is probably only
> me, would be to be heavily involved with raising a puppy. It would be
> good, and I don't know how to define "good" for me to see the
> incremental process from puppy to guide dog, or even potential guide
> dog.
> I'm sorry guys, I'm just not getting the self-respect, dollars and value
> linkage.
> How do those of you who weren't required to pay a little for your dogs
> feel?
> I do appreciate those of you who have responded for doing so.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Garry and Joy Relton
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:22 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] $150: Then & now
>
> Rebecca, Et Al,
>
> The Seeing Eye charges $150 for the first dog and the subsequent dogs
> only cost $50. The amount is not the issue. The issue is that the blind
> person has ownership and someone cannot come to them and say "how's our
> dog". At the time, and to some extent today. Blind persons obtained a
> great deal of charity for which people felt very ritious. "those poor
> blind people. Look how we made their lives better." The training and
> ownership of a dog helps further the goal of the Seeing Eye to give
> Dignity and Self-respect. By the way, there is no limit to the time in
> which that amount is paid.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (IT)
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 1:01 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] $150: Then & now
>
>
> Probably not much.
> I'm curious though, given the large amount the $150 was back in 1929,
> why has SeeingEye not upped their fee for obtaining a dog?
> Paying off that $150 would have been a lot harder in 1929 then it would
> today.
> Why were the early graduates of the program set to a more difficult
> standard?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:42 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] $150: Then & now
>
> Interesting.  But shouldn't it be 1929-2009?  Maybe makes no real
> difference, but 1927 was in a boom period, and 1929, when it ended, was
> the beginning of the great depression.  Rather like 2006 and 2009. Don't
> know how much inflation-deflation would take place in 2 years, though.
> Tracy
>
>
>
>> A quick visit with Google presents the following findings:
>> In 2006, $150.00 from 1927 is worth:
>> $1,740.93
>> using the
>> Consumer Price Index
>>
>> I couldn't find any data to compare to 2009 figures in the short time
>> I looked, but this would be very close.
>>
>> HTH
>> Julie
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 7:06 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] $150: Then & now
>>
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>    As is typical on this list, topics tend to repeat themselves. Some
>
>>> time ago there was a discussion of the $150 fee charged by The Seeing
>
>>> Eye.
>>> this
>>> fee has been charged since early in its history. I did a check on
>>> what the value of $150  was then (and I don't remember what year I
>>> used for
>>> "then")
>>> and now. I sent the result to the list, so someone could look in the
>>> archives for the exact amount. I remember it was more than $2000!
>>>
>>> Fraternally,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>>
>>>
>>>> what do you mean by charging a feee for ownership.  Seeing eye
>>>> requires that we pay a fee for our dogs.  it is a small fee and I
>>>> like that we pay something.  We also aren't supposed to ask anyone
>>>> for help to pay this fee. They tqake installment payments so this
>>>> fee could be paid by anyone.
>>>> It's $150 for new students; $50 for retrains.  I personally like the
>
>>>> fact that my dog isn't given to me totally free. yes, the fee is
>>>> very, very small compared to the training costs and all that but I
>>>> like the principle of it.
>>>>
>>>> margo and Elmo
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Nicole B. Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:57 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't know if there is a time limit, but sometimes dogs that get
>>>>>returned  do get placed again. At GDB, they ask if you prefer not to
>
>>>>>have a dog  that  has been returned. I know a lady who had two
>>>>>shepherds in a row that  had  been returned, and they were perfectly
>
>>>>>fine dogs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, are there any other schools that charge a fee for ownership?
>>>>> I don't really like that idea.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Ron Davidson" <fuzzy_1 at cox.net>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 6:21 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] O&M, Ownership, & Leader
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was told that once a dog is returned it is retired or adopted out
>
>>>>> and they do not retrain and match with another student. As far as
>>>>> ownership I don't see what the big deal is if the school retains
>>>>> ownership for a year or two years. If they feel you are abusing or
>>>>> not taking care of the dog I would want them to take it. I have
>>>>> known too many people get the dog and don't follow the feeding
>>>>> guidelines and feed table scraps etc and it ruins the dogs
>>>>> digestive system and they will go for food left on floors of
>>>>> restraunts etc. To me all that does is ruin a good working dog and
>>>>> make the rest of us look bad. The school I went to kept ownership
>>>>> for two years and it was no big deal to me but everyone is
>>>>> different. I also was told  that Seeing eye gives ownership upon
>>>>> graduation when you pay a fee of 150.00 and this came from one of
>>>>> their field reps. I don't know what Leader dog does I went to
>>>>> Guiding Eyes and was very pleased with them and their follow-up.
> If
>>>>> I
>>>>> have
>>>>> a problem I gave them a call and we solved it over the phone or a
>>>>> field trainer would come down if serious enough. I know everyone
>>>>> has their own preference of schools just like me and this is just
>>>>> my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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