[nagdu] CA State Board

Marion & Martin swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Tue Mar 24 10:42:03 UTC 2009


Ana,
    Thank you for your presence on this list and your message to it. I wish 
there were more that the NFB could do about this issue! It's up to the State 
of California and their political Boards, such as this, to resolve this 
issue. My hope is that the State does not interfere with the work of the 
legitimate schools and their training programs, including follow-up, due to 
the reckless, fraudulent behavior of the Eye Dog Foundation.

Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Anna Thomasson" <anna.thomasson at towersperrin.com>
To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: [nagdu] CA State Board


>
>
>
>
> I do not know the history of this open letter, but I can tell you from
> personal experience that the CA State Board has worked very hard to help 
> us
> volunteer puppy raisers with the challenges we have faced with EDF.  I 
> have
> attended a number of Board meetings and spoken with staff on more than one
> occasion.  They are well meaning people very concerned about the rights of
> the blind and the integrity of Guide Dog Schools.  I would presume good
> intent with this letter.
>
> Anna C. Thomasson
> Principal, Towers Perrin
> anna.thomasson at towersperrin.com
> Phoenix:           602-553-1087
> Los Angeles:  310-551-5854
> Facsimile:       310-789-5909
>
> ----- Forwarded by Anna Thomasson/Towers Perrin on 03/23/2009 03:52 PM
> -----
>
>
>
>                                                                        To
>               nagdu-request at n         nagdu at nfbnet.org
>               fbnet.org                                                cc
>               Sent by:
>               nagdu-bounces at n                                     Subject
>               fbnet.org               nagdu Digest, Vol 48, Issue 29
>
>
>               03/23/2009
>               10:00 AM
>
>
>               Please respond
>                     to
>               nagdu at nfbnet.or
>                      g
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: guide dogs in UK / update on Shaman's training.
>      (Mardi Hadfield)
>   2. Re: CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>      (Margo and Elmo)
>   3. Re: CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>      (mhingson)
>   4. Re: CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>      (Angie Matney)
>   5. Re: CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>      (Michael Hingson)
>   6. Re: CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>      (Angie Matney)
>   7. Re: CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>      (Michael Hingson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 14:09:02 -0700
> From: Mardi Hadfield <wolfsinger.lakota at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] guide dogs in UK / update on Shaman's training.
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Message-ID:
>             <9023d1d70903221409u6c16da9bnf40586ec798ac120 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi every one,  Sean, Thanks for sharing this bit of interesting
> information.
> I wish more schools would train for wheelchair users. There are at least 4
> other legally blind wheelchair users in Tucson AZ, where I live.Only one ,
> other than my self has a guide dog.Hers was also trained by my private
> trainer.It is not any harder to train a dog to work from a wheelchair than
> ,
> than to train one to work for a person who walks. There are some things
> different, but most of the training is the same.I am just talking about
> the
> guide training here.     Shaman has done well riding the bus and going to
> the Mall. Yesterday, Nick and I took him to the street fair. For the most
> part he was good. The crowds did not bother him,and he seemed to watch 
> Nala
> for clues on how to navigate around the people,and baby carriages,and
> balloons ect. He watched as I held a magnificent ,large, green Iguana. I
> have always wanted an Iguana. Now I know I have to have one,but not at 
> this
> time. Shaman did bark at some dogs but not others.He was not aggressive at
> all. He wanted to go and play with them. He is still young and has not
> realized than he is working when we are out in public. We will have to 
> work
> on the barking issue. More trips to the dog park.  Have a great day, Mardi
> and Nala,semi-retired and Shaman,gdit
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:21:09 -0400
> From: "Margo and Elmo" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state
>             schools
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,             the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
>             <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <5A17175D0A6D44C59D4B91AE748F1536 at demoPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
>             reply-type=original
>
> that doesn't seem quite right to me.  So, if the Seeing Eye does follow 
> ups
>
> in California with graduates, they'll have to jump through hoops to 
> provide
>
> those services, and, I don't think the California Board has the right to
> tell guide dog schools who function well and so on what they need to know
> or
> do to do follow-ups or home training in California.  sounds fishy to me.
>
> margo and Elmo
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mhingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>
> Craig,
>
> Owner-trainers are exempt.
>
> On the other hand, it will be interesting to monitor this and to see how 
> it
> shakes down.  Many schools do come into California to raise funds as well
> as
> to conduct some training through follow up.  Mostly, I suspect that the
> board is attempting to secure licensing fees from those schools who do 
> have
> some activities in California.
>
> The Michael Hingson Group
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Craig Borne
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:00 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Wow.
>
> For a school located outside of California and training guides/handlers
> outside of California, I don't see how this would be enforceable.  The
> statutes cited do not apply to blind handlers, only schools.  The State
> cannot dictate where a handler goes to acquire a dog, and the State cannot
> override the ADA by not granting access to a handler using a guide dog 
> from
> out of State.
>
> This would, however, effect owner/trainers in California, since before
> "using" the guide, the owner/trainer would be "training" a non-guide dog.
>
> California cannot set business regulations outside of its borders.  This
> would be a very slippery slope indeed.  I smell revenue enhancing motives
> for California.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Borne
> Baltimore, Maryland
> "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
> appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
> defense of custom."  --Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:22 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Have people seen this letter from the California State Board of Guide Dogs
> for the Blind to out-of-state dog-guide programs? The text follows the
> link.
>
> http://www.guidedogboard.ca.gov/forms_pubs/outofstateletter.shtml
>
> Letter to out-of-state schools
> Re: Compliance with California State Law Pertaining to Guide Dogs
>
> Dear Out-of-State School:
>
> On July 8, 1947, Governor Earl Warren signed into law the Guide Dog Act.
> This act was established to keep out maverick guide dog schools, protect
> the
> visually impaired by setting minimum standards of training, provide
> oversight for the disposition
> of donor funds and maintain minimum competency of training for licensed
> guide dog instructors.
>
> The purpose of this letter is twofold. First, the Board wishes to inform
> all
> out-of-state schools the statutes requiring compliance with licensure
> requirements for instruction in the state of California. Second, the Board
> has a process for compliance -
> namely the examination for an instructor license. If a candidate for
> licensure meets the minimum requirements to sit for the examination, they
> are eligible for licensure status. The examination is given twice per year
> and involves a one-day Written
> Exam
> and a one-day Oral/Practical Exam. Fingerprints are also required before
> taking the examination.
>
> First, California law requires a license for the sale or the giving of a
> guide dog. Business and Professions Code section 7210 requires that:
>
> It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, give, hire or
> furnish under any other arrangement, any guide dog or seeing-eye dog or to
> engage in the business or occupation of training any such dog unless he
> holds a valid and unimpaired
> license issued pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.
>
> Second, California law requires guide dog instructors to be licensed. An
> instructor "means a person who instructs blind persons in the use of guide
> dogs or who engages in the business of training, selling, hiring, or
> supplying guide dogs for the blind."
> California law as set forth in 16 CCR section 2284 requires:
>
> Anyone instructing a blind person in the use of a guide dog must be
> licensed
> by the Board, provided, however, that a school may employ apprentices to
> assist in such instruction. No apprentice shall act as an instructor 
> except
> under the direct and
> immediate supervision of a licensed instructor.
>
> Last, B&P Code Section 7213 provides that:
>
> Violation of any provision of this chapter is a misdemeanor.
>
> The process for obtaining an instructor license begins with an 
> examination.
> To qualify to take the examination, the individual must have the following
> qualifications as set forth in Statute (B&P Code Section 7209) -- which
> states the following:
>
> [P]erson to be eligible for examination as an instructor must (1) have a
> knowledge of the special problems of the blind and how to teach them, (2)
> be
> able to demonstrate by actual blindfold test under traffic conditions his
> ability to train guide dogs with
> whom a blind person would be safe, (3) be suited temperamentally and
> otherwise to instruct blind persons in the use of guide dogs, and, (4) 
> have
> had at least three years actual experience, comprising such number of 
> hours
> as the Board may require,
> as an instructor, and have handled twenty-two (22) man-dog units; or its
> equivalent, as determined by the Board, as an apprentice under a licensed
> instructor or under an instructor in a school satisfactory to the Board.
>
> Applicants for the instructor license are required to take both a written
> and practical/oral examination. Applicants must provide a 15-30 minute
> video
> demonstrating instruction skills. A panel of subject matter experts will
> review the video and evaluate
> the candidate's oral defense of said video. The five steps to licensing 
> are
> available on the Board's Web site. Applicants may also obtain the
> application for examination at www.guidedogboard.ca.gov
>
> The instructor licenses are good for one year and are renewed each year
> thereafter for a fee of $100. Along with the fee, an instructor must
> provide
> the Board with evidence of continuing education (either 8 hours of
> course/seminar attendance or 16
> hours of attendance at meetings of guide dog users or organizations of the
> blind).
>
> If you have any questions about the laws cited above, please feel free to
> contact me at               (916) 574-7825       . Thank you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Antonette Sorrick
>
> ANTONETTE SORRICK
> Executive Officer, State Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:52:20 -0700
> From: "mhingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state
>             schools
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,            the National Association of Guide Dog
>             Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
>
> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANyBSHcYOYRDmzMn4CvpYcrCgAAAEAAAALSaPweBNB5HvRLtKxfwCG0BAAAAAA==@michaelhingson.com>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;            charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I do not know what is motivating the board, but I suspect it is not so 
> much
> follow up as it might be fund raising.
>
> The?Michael Hingson Group
> ???? ?Speaking?with Vision?
> ?????????????????Michael Hingson,?President
> ???????????????????????? (415) 827-4084
> ???????????????????info at michaelhingson.com
> ?????????????? ????www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader?Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Margo and Elmo
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 5:21 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> that doesn't seem quite right to me.  So, if the Seeing Eye does follow 
> ups
>
> in California with graduates, they'll have to jump through hoops to 
> provide
>
> those services, and, I don't think the California Board has the right to
> tell guide dog schools who function well and so on what they need to know
> or
>
> do to do follow-ups or home training in California.  sounds fishy to me.
>
> margo and Elmo
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mhingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>
> Craig,
>
> Owner-trainers are exempt.
>
> On the other hand, it will be interesting to monitor this and to see how 
> it
> shakes down.  Many schools do come into California to raise funds as well
> as
> to conduct some training through follow up.  Mostly, I suspect that the
> board is attempting to secure licensing fees from those schools who do 
> have
> some activities in California.
>
> The Michael Hingson Group
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Craig Borne
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:00 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Wow.
>
> For a school located outside of California and training guides/handlers
> outside of California, I don't see how this would be enforceable.  The
> statutes cited do not apply to blind handlers, only schools.  The State
> cannot dictate where a handler goes to acquire a dog, and the State cannot
> override the ADA by not granting access to a handler using a guide dog 
> from
> out of State.
>
> This would, however, effect owner/trainers in California, since before
> "using" the guide, the owner/trainer would be "training" a non-guide dog.
>
> California cannot set business regulations outside of its borders.  This
> would be a very slippery slope indeed.  I smell revenue enhancing motives
> for California.
>
> Craig
>
> Craig Borne
> Baltimore, Maryland
> "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
> appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
> defense of custom."  --Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:22 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Have people seen this letter from the California State Board of Guide Dogs
> for the Blind to out-of-state dog-guide programs? The text follows the
> link.
>
> http://www.guidedogboard.ca.gov/forms_pubs/outofstateletter.shtml
>
>
> Letter to out-of-state schools
> Re: Compliance with California State Law Pertaining to Guide Dogs
>
> Dear Out-of-State School:
>
> On July 8, 1947, Governor Earl Warren signed into law the Guide Dog Act.
> This act was established to keep out maverick guide dog schools, protect
> the
> visually impaired by setting minimum standards of training, provide
> oversight for the disposition
> of donor funds and maintain minimum competency of training for licensed
> guide dog instructors.
>
> The purpose of this letter is twofold. First, the Board wishes to inform
> all
> out-of-state schools the statutes requiring compliance with licensure
> requirements for instruction in the state of California. Second, the Board
> has a process for compliance -
> namely the examination for an instructor license. If a candidate for
> licensure meets the minimum requirements to sit for the examination, they
> are eligible for licensure status. The examination is given twice per year
> and involves a one-day Written
> Exam
> and a one-day Oral/Practical Exam. Fingerprints are also required before
> taking the examination.
>
> First, California law requires a license for the sale or the giving of a
> guide dog. Business and Professions Code section 7210 requires that:
>
> It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, give, hire or
> furnish under any other arrangement, any guide dog or seeing-eye dog or to
> engage in the business or occupation of training any such dog unless he
> holds a valid and unimpaired
> license issued pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.
>
> Second, California law requires guide dog instructors to be licensed. An
> instructor "means a person who instructs blind persons in the use of guide
> dogs or who engages in the business of training, selling, hiring, or
> supplying guide dogs for the blind."
> California law as set forth in 16 CCR section 2284 requires:
>
> Anyone instructing a blind person in the use of a guide dog must be
> licensed
> by the Board, provided, however, that a school may employ apprentices to
> assist in such instruction. No apprentice shall act as an instructor 
> except
> under the direct and
> immediate supervision of a licensed instructor.
>
> Last, B&P Code Section 7213 provides that:
>
> Violation of any provision of this chapter is a misdemeanor.
>
> The process for obtaining an instructor license begins with an 
> examination.
> To qualify to take the examination, the individual must have the following
> qualifications as set forth in Statute (B&P Code Section 7209) -- which
> states the following:
>
> [P]erson to be eligible for examination as an instructor must (1) have a
> knowledge of the special problems of the blind and how to teach them, (2)
> be
> able to demonstrate by actual blindfold test under traffic conditions his
> ability to train guide dogs with
> whom a blind person would be safe, (3) be suited temperamentally and
> otherwise to instruct blind persons in the use of guide dogs, and, (4) 
> have
> had at least three years actual experience, comprising such number of 
> hours
> as the Board may require,
> as an instructor, and have handled twenty-two (22) man-dog units; or its
> equivalent, as determined by the Board, as an apprentice under a licensed
> instructor or under an instructor in a school satisfactory to the Board.
>
> Applicants for the instructor license are required to take both a written
> and practical/oral examination. Applicants must provide a 15-30 minute
> video
> demonstrating instruction skills. A panel of subject matter experts will
> review the video and evaluate
> the candidate's oral defense of said video. The five steps to licensing 
> are
> available on the Board's Web site. Applicants may also obtain the
> application for examination at www.guidedogboard.ca.gov
>
> The instructor licenses are good for one year and are renewed each year
> thereafter for a fee of $100. Along with the fee, an instructor must
> provide
> the Board with evidence of continuing education (either 8 hours of
> course/seminar attendance or 16
> hours of attendance at meetings of guide dog users or organizations of the
> blind).
>
> If you have any questions about the laws cited above, please feel free to
> contact me at               (916) 574-7825       . Thank you.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Antonette Sorrick
>
> ANTONETTE SORRICK
> Executive Officer, State Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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> .
> net
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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>
> n.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> .
> net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 23:21:02 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <leadinglabbie at mpmail.net>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state
>             schools
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,             the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
>             <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <mailman.79.1237827606.17749.nagdu_nfbnet.org at nfbnet.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I don't know. It seems like they wouldn't really make that much money.
> Suppose the ten or so non-California schools each licensed threee
> instructors. The board would get a one-time infusion of $7500, and then
> about $3000 each year. The
> statute requires schools that are licensed in California to pay a certain
> amount of their administrative expenses to the "Guide Dogs for the Blind
> Fund" (or whatever it's called), but these schools wouldn't be licensed
> entities in CA, so they
> wouldn't pay that expense. Do you think the Board would bother with this 
> in
> an attempt to raise $3000 a year? Or am I missing something?
>
> I'm wondering if public outcry in the face of what happened at EDF has led
> the Board to take these actions.
>
> I'm concerned that "training" is not defined in the statute.
>
> Angie
>
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:52:20 -0700, mhingson wrote:
>
>>I do not know what is motivating the board, but I suspect it is not so
> much
>>follow up as it might be fund raising.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>     
Speaking with Vision
>>                 Michael Hingson, President
>>                         (415) 827-4084
>>                   info at michaelhingson.com
>>                   www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Margo and Elmo
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 5:21 PM
>>To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>that doesn't seem quite right to me.  So, if the Seeing Eye does follow
> ups
>>in California with graduates, they'll have to jump through hoops to
> provide
>>those services, and, I don't think the California Board has the right to
>>tell guide dog schools who function well and so on what they need to know
> or
>
>>do to do follow-ups or home training in California.  sounds fishy to me.
>
>>margo and Elmo
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "mhingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:41 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>
>>Craig,
>
>>Owner-trainers are exempt.
>
>>On the other hand, it will be interesting to monitor this and to see how
> it
>>shakes down.  Many schools do come into California to raise funds as well
> as
>>to conduct some training through follow up.  Mostly, I suspect that the
>>board is attempting to secure licensing fees from those schools who do
> have
>>some activities in California.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>"Speaking with Vision"
>>Michael Hingson, President
>>(415) 827-4084
>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Craig Borne
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:00 PM
>>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Wow.
>
>>For a school located outside of California and training guides/handlers
>>outside of California, I don't see how this would be enforceable.  The
>>statutes cited do not apply to blind handlers, only schools.  The State
>>cannot dictate where a handler goes to acquire a dog, and the State cannot
>>override the ADA by not granting access to a handler using a guide dog
> from
>>out of State.
>
>>This would, however, effect owner/trainers in California, since before
>>"using" the guide, the owner/trainer would be "training" a non-guide dog.
>
>>California cannot set business regulations outside of its borders.  This
>>would be a very slippery slope indeed.  I smell revenue enhancing motives
>>for California.
>
>>Craig
>
>>Craig Borne
>>Baltimore, Maryland
>>"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
>>appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
>>defense of custom."  --Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Angie Matney
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:22 PM
>>To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>Subject: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Have people seen this letter from the California State Board of Guide Dogs
>>for the Blind to out-of-state dog-guide programs? The text follows the
> link.
>
>>http://www.guidedogboard.ca.gov/forms_pubs/outofstateletter.shtml
>
>>Letter to out-of-state schools
>>Re: Compliance with California State Law Pertaining to Guide Dogs
>
>>Dear Out-of-State School:
>
>>On July 8, 1947, Governor Earl Warren signed into law the Guide Dog Act.
>>This act was established to keep out maverick guide dog schools, protect
> the
>>visually impaired by setting minimum standards of training, provide
>>oversight for the disposition
>>of donor funds and maintain minimum competency of training for licensed
>>guide dog instructors.
>
>>The purpose of this letter is twofold. First, the Board wishes to inform
> all
>>out-of-state schools the statutes requiring compliance with licensure
>>requirements for instruction in the state of California. Second, the Board
>>has a process for compliance -
>>namely the examination for an instructor license. If a candidate for
>>licensure meets the minimum requirements to sit for the examination, they
>>are eligible for licensure status. The examination is given twice per year
>>and involves a one-day Written
>>Exam
>>and a one-day Oral/Practical Exam. Fingerprints are also required before
>>taking the examination.
>
>>First, California law requires a license for the sale or the giving of a
>>guide dog. Business and Professions Code section 7210 requires that:
>
>>It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, give, hire or
>>furnish under any other arrangement, any guide dog or seeing-eye dog or to
>>engage in the business or occupation of training any such dog unless he
>>holds a valid and unimpaired
>>license issued pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.
>
>>Second, California law requires guide dog instructors to be licensed. An
>>instructor "means a person who instructs blind persons in the use of guide
>>dogs or who engages in the business of training, selling, hiring, or
>>supplying guide dogs for the blind."
>>California law as set forth in 16 CCR section 2284 requires:
>
>>Anyone instructing a blind person in the use of a guide dog must be
> licensed
>>by the Board, provided, however, that a school may employ apprentices to
>>assist in such instruction. No apprentice shall act as an instructor
> except
>>under the direct and
>>immediate supervision of a licensed instructor.
>
>>Last, B&P Code Section 7213 provides that:
>
>>Violation of any provision of this chapter is a misdemeanor.
>
>>The process for obtaining an instructor license begins with an
> examination.
>>To qualify to take the examination, the individual must have the following
>>qualifications as set forth in Statute (B&P Code Section 7209) -- which
>>states the following:
>
>>[P]erson to be eligible for examination as an instructor must (1) have a
>>knowledge of the special problems of the blind and how to teach them, (2)
> be
>>able to demonstrate by actual blindfold test under traffic conditions his
>>ability to train guide dogs with
>>whom a blind person would be safe, (3) be suited temperamentally and
>>otherwise to instruct blind persons in the use of guide dogs, and, (4)
> have
>>had at least three years actual experience, comprising such number of
> hours
>>as the Board may require,
>>as an instructor, and have handled twenty-two (22) man-dog units; or its
>>equivalent, as determined by the Board, as an apprentice under a licensed
>>instructor or under an instructor in a school satisfactory to the Board.
>
>>Applicants for the instructor license are required to take both a written
>>and practical/oral examination. Applicants must provide a 15-30 minute
> video
>>demonstrating instruction skills. A panel of subject matter experts will
>>review the video and evaluate
>>the candidate's oral defense of said video. The five steps to licensing
> are
>>available on the Board's Web site. Applicants may also obtain the
>>application for examination at www.guidedogboard.ca.gov
>
>>The instructor licenses are good for one year and are renewed each year
>>thereafter for a fee of $100. Along with the fee, an instructor must
> provide
>>the Board with evidence of continuing education (either 8 hours of
>>course/seminar attendance or 16
>>hours of attendance at meetings of guide dog users or organizations of the
>>blind).
>
>>If you have any questions about the laws cited above, please feel free to
>>contact me at               (916) 574-7825       . Thank you.
>
>>Sincerely,
>
>>Antonette Sorrick
>
>>ANTONETTE SORRICK
>>Executive Officer, State Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast.net
>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal.
>
>>net
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizo
>
>>n.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal.
>
>>net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/leadinglabbie%40mpmail.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:34:52 -0700
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state
>             schools
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,            the National Association of Guide Dog
>             Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
>
> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANyBSHcYOYRDmzMn4CvpYcrCgAAAEAAAAL7QEluRQIVEiyBvuZbMJc0BAAAAAA==@michaelhingson.com>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;            charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Angie,
>
> I think the board wishes to license schools outside California so they can
> get those fees of which you speak.  They cannot nor should not prevent
> follow-up, but they can try to get money from schools with reps living in
> the state or which fundraise in the state.
>
>
> M. H.
>
> The?Michael Hingson Group
> ???? ?Speaking?with Vision?
> ?????????????????Michael Hingson,?President
> ???????????????????????? (415) 827-4084
> ???????????????????info at michaelhingson.com
> ?????????????? ????www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader?Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:21 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I don't know. It seems like they wouldn't really make that much money.
> Suppose the ten or so non-California schools each licensed threee
> instructors. The board would get a one-time infusion of $7500, and then
> about $3000 each year. The
> statute requires schools that are licensed in California to pay a certain
> amount of their administrative expenses to the "Guide Dogs for the Blind
> Fund" (or whatever it's called), but these schools wouldn't be licensed
> entities in CA, so they
> wouldn't pay that expense. Do you think the Board would bother with this 
> in
> an attempt to raise $3000 a year? Or am I missing something?
>
> I'm wondering if public outcry in the face of what happened at EDF has led
> the Board to take these actions.
>
> I'm concerned that "training" is not defined in the statute.
>
> Angie
>
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:52:20 -0700, mhingson wrote:
>
>>I do not know what is motivating the board, but I suspect it is not so
> much
>>follow up as it might be fund raising.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>     
Speaking with Vision
>>                 Michael Hingson, President
>>                         (415) 827-4084
>>                   info at michaelhingson.com
>>                   www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Margo and Elmo
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 5:21 PM
>>To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>that doesn't seem quite right to me.  So, if the Seeing Eye does follow
> ups
>
>>in California with graduates, they'll have to jump through hoops to
> provide
>
>>those services, and, I don't think the California Board has the right to
>>tell guide dog schools who function well and so on what they need to know
> or
>
>>do to do follow-ups or home training in California.  sounds fishy to me.
>
>>margo and Elmo
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "mhingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:41 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>
>>Craig,
>
>>Owner-trainers are exempt.
>
>>On the other hand, it will be interesting to monitor this and to see how
> it
>>shakes down.  Many schools do come into California to raise funds as well
> as
>>to conduct some training through follow up.  Mostly, I suspect that the
>>board is attempting to secure licensing fees from those schools who do
> have
>>some activities in California.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>"Speaking with Vision"
>>Michael Hingson, President
>>(415) 827-4084
>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Craig Borne
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:00 PM
>>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Wow.
>
>>For a school located outside of California and training guides/handlers
>>outside of California, I don't see how this would be enforceable.  The
>>statutes cited do not apply to blind handlers, only schools.  The State
>>cannot dictate where a handler goes to acquire a dog, and the State cannot
>>override the ADA by not granting access to a handler using a guide dog
> from
>>out of State.
>
>>This would, however, effect owner/trainers in California, since before
>>"using" the guide, the owner/trainer would be "training" a non-guide dog.
>
>>California cannot set business regulations outside of its borders.  This
>>would be a very slippery slope indeed.  I smell revenue enhancing motives
>>for California.
>
>>Craig
>
>>Craig Borne
>>Baltimore, Maryland
>>"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
>>appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
>>defense of custom."  --Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Angie Matney
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:22 PM
>>To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>Subject: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Have people seen this letter from the California State Board of Guide Dogs
>>for the Blind to out-of-state dog-guide programs? The text follows the
> link.
>
>>http://www.guidedogboard.ca.gov/forms_pubs/outofstateletter.shtml
>
>>Letter to out-of-state schools
>>Re: Compliance with California State Law Pertaining to Guide Dogs
>
>>Dear Out-of-State School:
>
>>On July 8, 1947, Governor Earl Warren signed into law the Guide Dog Act.
>>This act was established to keep out maverick guide dog schools, protect
> the
>>visually impaired by setting minimum standards of training, provide
>>oversight for the disposition
>>of donor funds and maintain minimum competency of training for licensed
>>guide dog instructors.
>
>>The purpose of this letter is twofold. First, the Board wishes to inform
> all
>>out-of-state schools the statutes requiring compliance with licensure
>>requirements for instruction in the state of California. Second, the Board
>>has a process for compliance -
>>namely the examination for an instructor license. If a candidate for
>>licensure meets the minimum requirements to sit for the examination, they
>>are eligible for licensure status. The examination is given twice per year
>>and involves a one-day Written
>>Exam
>>and a one-day Oral/Practical Exam. Fingerprints are also required before
>>taking the examination.
>
>>First, California law requires a license for the sale or the giving of a
>>guide dog. Business and Professions Code section 7210 requires that:
>
>>It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, give, hire or
>>furnish under any other arrangement, any guide dog or seeing-eye dog or to
>>engage in the business or occupation of training any such dog unless he
>>holds a valid and unimpaired
>>license issued pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.
>
>>Second, California law requires guide dog instructors to be licensed. An
>>instructor "means a person who instructs blind persons in the use of guide
>>dogs or who engages in the business of training, selling, hiring, or
>>supplying guide dogs for the blind."
>>California law as set forth in 16 CCR section 2284 requires:
>
>>Anyone instructing a blind person in the use of a guide dog must be
> licensed
>>by the Board, provided, however, that a school may employ apprentices to
>>assist in such instruction. No apprentice shall act as an instructor
> except
>>under the direct and
>>immediate supervision of a licensed instructor.
>
>>Last, B&P Code Section 7213 provides that:
>
>>Violation of any provision of this chapter is a misdemeanor.
>
>>The process for obtaining an instructor license begins with an
> examination.
>>To qualify to take the examination, the individual must have the following
>>qualifications as set forth in Statute (B&P Code Section 7209) -- which
>>states the following:
>
>>[P]erson to be eligible for examination as an instructor must (1) have a
>>knowledge of the special problems of the blind and how to teach them, (2)
> be
>>able to demonstrate by actual blindfold test under traffic conditions his
>>ability to train guide dogs with
>>whom a blind person would be safe, (3) be suited temperamentally and
>>otherwise to instruct blind persons in the use of guide dogs, and, (4)
> have
>>had at least three years actual experience, comprising such number of
> hours
>>as the Board may require,
>>as an instructor, and have handled twenty-two (22) man-dog units; or its
>>equivalent, as determined by the Board, as an apprentice under a licensed
>>instructor or under an instructor in a school satisfactory to the Board.
>
>>Applicants for the instructor license are required to take both a written
>>and practical/oral examination. Applicants must provide a 15-30 minute
> video
>>demonstrating instruction skills. A panel of subject matter experts will
>>review the video and evaluate
>>the candidate's oral defense of said video. The five steps to licensing
> are
>>available on the Board's Web site. Applicants may also obtain the
>>application for examination at www.guidedogboard.ca.gov
>
>>The instructor licenses are good for one year and are renewed each year
>>thereafter for a fee of $100. Along with the fee, an instructor must
> provide
>>the Board with evidence of continuing education (either 8 hours of
>>course/seminar attendance or 16
>>hours of attendance at meetings of guide dog users or organizations of the
>>blind).
>
>>If you have any questions about the laws cited above, please feel free to
>>contact me at               (916) 574-7825       . Thank you.
>
>>Sincerely,
>
>>Antonette Sorrick
>
>>ANTONETTE SORRICK
>>Executive Officer, State Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast..ne
>
> t
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal
>
> ..
>>net
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veriz
>
> o
>>n.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal
>
> ..
>>net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/leadinglabbie%40mpma
>
> il.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson
>
> ..com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 00:33:50 -0400
> From: "Angie Matney" <angie.matney at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state
>             schools
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,            the National Association of Guide Dog
>             Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID: <49c71129.050cc00a.64e8.ffffb56d at mx.google.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;            charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Am I understanding correctly that they could only get the instructor
> licensing fees, not the administrative fees?
>
> Angie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:35 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Hi Angie,
>
> I think the board wishes to license schools outside California so they can
> get those fees of which you speak.  They cannot nor should not prevent
> follow-up, but they can try to get money from schools with reps living in
> the state or which fundraise in the state.
>
>
> M. H.
>
> The?Michael Hingson Group
> ???? ?Speaking?with Vision?
> ?????????????????Michael Hingson,?President
> ???????????????????????? (415) 827-4084
> ???????????????????info at michaelhingson.com
> ?????????????? ????www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader?Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:21 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I don't know. It seems like they wouldn't really make that much money.
> Suppose the ten or so non-California schools each licensed threee
> instructors. The board would get a one-time infusion of $7500, and then
> about $3000 each year. The
> statute requires schools that are licensed in California to pay a certain
> amount of their administrative expenses to the "Guide Dogs for the Blind
> Fund" (or whatever it's called), but these schools wouldn't be licensed
> entities in CA, so they
> wouldn't pay that expense. Do you think the Board would bother with this 
> in
> an attempt to raise $3000 a year? Or am I missing something?
>
> I'm wondering if public outcry in the face of what happened at EDF has led
> the Board to take these actions.
>
> I'm concerned that "training" is not defined in the statute.
>
> Angie
>
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:52:20 -0700, mhingson wrote:
>
>>I do not know what is motivating the board, but I suspect it is not so
> much
>>follow up as it might be fund raising.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>     
Speaking with Vision
>>                 Michael Hingson, President
>>                         (415) 827-4084
>>                   info at michaelhingson.com
>>                   www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Margo and Elmo
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 5:21 PM
>>To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>that doesn't seem quite right to me.  So, if the Seeing Eye does follow
> ups
>
>>in California with graduates, they'll have to jump through hoops to
> provide
>
>>those services, and, I don't think the California Board has the right to
>>tell guide dog schools who function well and so on what they need to know
> or
>
>>do to do follow-ups or home training in California.  sounds fishy to me.
>
>>margo and Elmo
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "mhingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:41 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>
>>Craig,
>
>>Owner-trainers are exempt.
>
>>On the other hand, it will be interesting to monitor this and to see how
> it
>>shakes down.  Many schools do come into California to raise funds as well
> as
>>to conduct some training through follow up.  Mostly, I suspect that the
>>board is attempting to secure licensing fees from those schools who do
> have
>>some activities in California.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>"Speaking with Vision"
>>Michael Hingson, President
>>(415) 827-4084
>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Craig Borne
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:00 PM
>>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Wow.
>
>>For a school located outside of California and training guides/handlers
>>outside of California, I don't see how this would be enforceable.  The
>>statutes cited do not apply to blind handlers, only schools.  The State
>>cannot dictate where a handler goes to acquire a dog, and the State cannot
>>override the ADA by not granting access to a handler using a guide dog
> from
>>out of State.
>
>>This would, however, effect owner/trainers in California, since before
>>"using" the guide, the owner/trainer would be "training" a non-guide dog.
>
>>California cannot set business regulations outside of its borders.  This
>>would be a very slippery slope indeed.  I smell revenue enhancing motives
>>for California.
>
>>Craig
>
>>Craig Borne
>>Baltimore, Maryland
>>"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
>>appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
>>defense of custom."  --Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Angie Matney
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:22 PM
>>To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>Subject: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Have people seen this letter from the California State Board of Guide Dogs
>>for the Blind to out-of-state dog-guide programs? The text follows the
> link.
>
>>http://www.guidedogboard.ca.gov/forms_pubs/outofstateletter.shtml
>
>>Letter to out-of-state schools
>>Re: Compliance with California State Law Pertaining to Guide Dogs
>
>>Dear Out-of-State School:
>
>>On July 8, 1947, Governor Earl Warren signed into law the Guide Dog Act.
>>This act was established to keep out maverick guide dog schools, protect
> the
>>visually impaired by setting minimum standards of training, provide
>>oversight for the disposition
>>of donor funds and maintain minimum competency of training for licensed
>>guide dog instructors.
>
>>The purpose of this letter is twofold. First, the Board wishes to inform
> all
>>out-of-state schools the statutes requiring compliance with licensure
>>requirements for instruction in the state of California. Second, the Board
>>has a process for compliance -
>>namely the examination for an instructor license. If a candidate for
>>licensure meets the minimum requirements to sit for the examination, they
>>are eligible for licensure status. The examination is given twice per year
>>and involves a one-day Written
>>Exam
>>and a one-day Oral/Practical Exam. Fingerprints are also required before
>>taking the examination.
>
>>First, California law requires a license for the sale or the giving of a
>>guide dog. Business and Professions Code section 7210 requires that:
>
>>It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, give, hire or
>>furnish under any other arrangement, any guide dog or seeing-eye dog or to
>>engage in the business or occupation of training any such dog unless he
>>holds a valid and unimpaired
>>license issued pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.
>
>>Second, California law requires guide dog instructors to be licensed. An
>>instructor "means a person who instructs blind persons in the use of guide
>>dogs or who engages in the business of training, selling, hiring, or
>>supplying guide dogs for the blind."
>>California law as set forth in 16 CCR section 2284 requires:
>
>>Anyone instructing a blind person in the use of a guide dog must be
> licensed
>>by the Board, provided, however, that a school may employ apprentices to
>>assist in such instruction. No apprentice shall act as an instructor
> except
>>under the direct and
>>immediate supervision of a licensed instructor.
>
>>Last, B&P Code Section 7213 provides that:
>
>>Violation of any provision of this chapter is a misdemeanor.
>
>>The process for obtaining an instructor license begins with an
> examination.
>>To qualify to take the examination, the individual must have the following
>>qualifications as set forth in Statute (B&P Code Section 7209) -- which
>>states the following:
>
>>[P]erson to be eligible for examination as an instructor must (1) have a
>>knowledge of the special problems of the blind and how to teach them, (2)
> be
>>able to demonstrate by actual blindfold test under traffic conditions his
>>ability to train guide dogs with
>>whom a blind person would be safe, (3) be suited temperamentally and
>>otherwise to instruct blind persons in the use of guide dogs, and, (4)
> have
>>had at least three years actual experience, comprising such number of
> hours
>>as the Board may require,
>>as an instructor, and have handled twenty-two (22) man-dog units; or its
>>equivalent, as determined by the Board, as an apprentice under a licensed
>>instructor or under an instructor in a school satisfactory to the Board.
>
>>Applicants for the instructor license are required to take both a written
>>and practical/oral examination. Applicants must provide a 15-30 minute
> video
>>demonstrating instruction skills. A panel of subject matter experts will
>>review the video and evaluate
>>the candidate's oral defense of said video. The five steps to licensing
> are
>>available on the Board's Web site. Applicants may also obtain the
>>application for examination at www.guidedogboard.ca.gov
>
>>The instructor licenses are good for one year and are renewed each year
>>thereafter for a fee of $100. Along with the fee, an instructor must
> provide
>>the Board with evidence of continuing education (either 8 hours of
>>course/seminar attendance or 16
>>hours of attendance at meetings of guide dog users or organizations of the
>>blind).
>
>>If you have any questions about the laws cited above, please feel free to
>>contact me at               (916) 574-7825       . Thank you.
>
>>Sincerely,
>
>>Antonette Sorrick
>
>>ANTONETTE SORRICK
>>Executive Officer, State Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast..n
>
> e
> t
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal
>
> ..
>>net
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veriz
>
> o
>>n.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal
>
> ..
>>net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/leadinglabbie%40mpma
>
> il.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/info%40michaelhingson
>
> ..com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/angie.matney%40gmail
> .
> com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 22:10:37 -0700
> From: "Michael Hingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state
>             schools
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,            the National Association of Guide Dog
>             Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Message-ID:
>
> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAANyBSHcYOYRDmzMn4CvpYcrCgAAAEAAAADggbRy4YkZMvZIHJsFHOqMBAAAAAA==@michaelhingson.com>
>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain;            charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Angie,
>
> I am not sure. I suspect it depends on exactly what activities any given
> school is performing in CA.
>
> The?Michael Hingson Group
> ???? ?Speaking?with Vision?
> ?????????????????Michael Hingson,?President
> ???????????????????????? (415) 827-4084
> ???????????????????info at michaelhingson.com
> ?????????????? ????www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader?Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 9:34 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Am I understanding correctly that they could only get the instructor
> licensing fees, not the administrative fees?
>
> Angie
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Michael Hingson
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 11:35 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Hi Angie,
>
> I think the board wishes to license schools outside California so they can
> get those fees of which you speak.  They cannot nor should not prevent
> follow-up, but they can try to get money from schools with reps living in
> the state or which fundraise in the state.
>
>
> M. H.
>
> The?Michael Hingson Group
> ???? ?Speaking?with Vision?
> ?????????????????Michael Hingson,?President
> ???????????????????????? (415) 827-4084
> ???????????????????info at michaelhingson.com
> ?????????????? ????www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
> for info on the new KNFB Reader?Mobile, visit:
> http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Angie Matney
> Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:21 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> I don't know. It seems like they wouldn't really make that much money.
> Suppose the ten or so non-California schools each licensed threee
> instructors. The board would get a one-time infusion of $7500, and then
> about $3000 each year. The
> statute requires schools that are licensed in California to pay a certain
> amount of their administrative expenses to the "Guide Dogs for the Blind
> Fund" (or whatever it's called), but these schools wouldn't be licensed
> entities in CA, so they
> wouldn't pay that expense. Do you think the Board would bother with this 
> in
> an attempt to raise $3000 a year? Or am I missing something?
>
> I'm wondering if public outcry in the face of what happened at EDF has led
> the Board to take these actions.
>
> I'm concerned that "training" is not defined in the statute.
>
> Angie
>
> On Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:52:20 -0700, mhingson wrote:
>
>>I do not know what is motivating the board, but I suspect it is not so
> much
>>follow up as it might be fund raising.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>     
Speaking with Vision
>>                 Michael Hingson, President
>>                         (415) 827-4084
>>                   info at michaelhingson.com
>>                   www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Margo and Elmo
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 5:21 PM
>>To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>that doesn't seem quite right to me.  So, if the Seeing Eye does follow
> ups
>
>>in California with graduates, they'll have to jump through hoops to
> provide
>
>>those services, and, I don't think the California Board has the right to
>>tell guide dog schools who function well and so on what they need to know
> or
>
>>do to do follow-ups or home training in California.  sounds fishy to me.
>
>>margo and Elmo
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "mhingson" <info at michaelhingson.com>
>>To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>><nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 10:41 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>
>>Craig,
>
>>Owner-trainers are exempt.
>
>>On the other hand, it will be interesting to monitor this and to see how
> it
>>shakes down.  Many schools do come into California to raise funds as well
> as
>>to conduct some training through follow up.  Mostly, I suspect that the
>>board is attempting to secure licensing fees from those schools who do
> have
>>some activities in California.
>
>>The Michael Hingson Group
>>"Speaking with Vision"
>>Michael Hingson, President
>>(415) 827-4084
>>info at michaelhingson.com
>>www.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>>for info on the new KNFB Reader Mobile, visit:
>>http://knfbreader.michaelhingson.com
>
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Craig Borne
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 6:00 PM
>>To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>Subject: Re: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Wow.
>
>>For a school located outside of California and training guides/handlers
>>outside of California, I don't see how this would be enforceable.  The
>>statutes cited do not apply to blind handlers, only schools.  The State
>>cannot dictate where a handler goes to acquire a dog, and the State cannot
>>override the ADA by not granting access to a handler using a guide dog
> from
>>out of State.
>
>>This would, however, effect owner/trainers in California, since before
>>"using" the guide, the owner/trainer would be "training" a non-guide dog.
>
>>California cannot set business regulations outside of its borders.  This
>>would be a very slippery slope indeed.  I smell revenue enhancing motives
>>for California.
>
>>Craig
>
>>Craig Borne
>>Baltimore, Maryland
>>"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial
>>appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in
>>defense of custom."  --Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>Of Angie Matney
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 8:22 PM
>>To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>Subject: [nagdu] CA State Board tries to regulate out-of-state schools
>
>>Have people seen this letter from the California State Board of Guide Dogs
>>for the Blind to out-of-state dog-guide programs? The text follows the
> link.
>
>>http://www.guidedogboard.ca.gov/forms_pubs/outofstateletter.shtml
>
>>Letter to out-of-state schools
>>Re: Compliance with California State Law Pertaining to Guide Dogs
>
>>Dear Out-of-State School:
>
>>On July 8, 1947, Governor Earl Warren signed into law the Guide Dog Act.
>>This act was established to keep out maverick guide dog schools, protect
> the
>>visually impaired by setting minimum standards of training, provide
>>oversight for the disposition
>>of donor funds and maintain minimum competency of training for licensed
>>guide dog instructors.
>
>>The purpose of this letter is twofold. First, the Board wishes to inform
> all
>>out-of-state schools the statutes requiring compliance with licensure
>>requirements for instruction in the state of California. Second, the Board
>>has a process for compliance -
>>namely the examination for an instructor license. If a candidate for
>>licensure meets the minimum requirements to sit for the examination, they
>>are eligible for licensure status. The examination is given twice per year
>>and involves a one-day Written
>>Exam
>>and a one-day Oral/Practical Exam. Fingerprints are also required before
>>taking the examination.
>
>>First, California law requires a license for the sale or the giving of a
>>guide dog. Business and Professions Code section 7210 requires that:
>
>>It shall be unlawful for any person to sell, offer for sale, give, hire or
>>furnish under any other arrangement, any guide dog or seeing-eye dog or to
>>engage in the business or occupation of training any such dog unless he
>>holds a valid and unimpaired
>>license issued pursuant to the provisions of this chapter.
>
>>Second, California law requires guide dog instructors to be licensed. An
>>instructor "means a person who instructs blind persons in the use of guide
>>dogs or who engages in the business of training, selling, hiring, or
>>supplying guide dogs for the blind."
>>California law as set forth in 16 CCR section 2284 requires:
>
>>Anyone instructing a blind person in the use of a guide dog must be
> licensed
>>by the Board, provided, however, that a school may employ apprentices to
>>assist in such instruction. No apprentice shall act as an instructor
> except
>>under the direct and
>>immediate supervision of a licensed instructor.
>
>>Last, B&P Code Section 7213 provides that:
>
>>Violation of any provision of this chapter is a misdemeanor.
>
>>The process for obtaining an instructor license begins with an
> examination.
>>To qualify to take the examination, the individual must have the following
>>qualifications as set forth in Statute (B&P Code Section 7209) -- which
>>states the following:
>
>>[P]erson to be eligible for examination as an instructor must (1) have a
>>knowledge of the special problems of the blind and how to teach them, (2)
> be
>>able to demonstrate by actual blindfold test under traffic conditions his
>>ability to train guide dogs with
>>whom a blind person would be safe, (3) be suited temperamentally and
>>otherwise to instruct blind persons in the use of guide dogs, and, (4)
> have
>>had at least three years actual experience, comprising such number of
> hours
>>as the Board may require,
>>as an instructor, and have handled twenty-two (22) man-dog units; or its
>>equivalent, as determined by the Board, as an apprentice under a licensed
>>instructor or under an instructor in a school satisfactory to the Board.
>
>>Applicants for the instructor license are required to take both a written
>>and practical/oral examination. Applicants must provide a 15-30 minute
> video
>>demonstrating instruction skills. A panel of subject matter experts will
>>review the video and evaluate
>>the candidate's oral defense of said video. The five steps to licensing
> are
>>available on the Board's Web site. Applicants may also obtain the
>>application for examination at www.guidedogboard.ca.gov
>
>>The instructor licenses are good for one year and are renewed each year
>>thereafter for a fee of $100. Along with the fee, an instructor must
> provide
>>the Board with evidence of continuing education (either 8 hours of
>>course/seminar attendance or 16
>>hours of attendance at meetings of guide dog users or organizations of the
>>blind).
>
>>If you have any questions about the laws cited above, please feel free to
>>contact me at               (916) 574-7825       . Thank you.
>
>>Sincerely,
>
>>Antonette Sorrick
>
>>ANTONETTE SORRICK
>>Executive Officer, State Board of Guide Dogs for the Blind
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cjborne%40comcast..n
>
> e
> t
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mhingson%40sbcglobal
>
> ..
>>net
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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>
> o
>>n.net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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>>net
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nagdu mailing list
>>nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
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>
> ..com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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