[nagdu] Poodles, and program dogs always under control
Nicole B. Torcolini
ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Thu May 28 18:23:33 UTC 2009
Also, some dogs have what I like to call the smell mute switch, I.E. I'm
busy smelling and am temporarily completely disconnected from the rest of
the world. Lexia is not bad about it; usually a slight verbal or leash
correction is enough to bring her back to earth, but our border collie mix
has one of the worst cases of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Poodles, and program dogs always under control
Tracy,
I'm only going by the few poodles I know, whose handlers feel comfortable
enough with them to let them run in partially enclosed parks. Mitzi is
definitely a velcro poodle, so I was happy when she started giving me more
than 18 inches of personal space. /smile/ There is a pair of poodles that
come to our new dog park, and one is super-velcro like Mitzi. The other
runs around more and isn't always checking in, so the owner has to call her
back every now and then. Which just goes to show, you can't be too willing
to act on your assumptions about breed traits. /smile/
My assumptions about program-raised dogs come from all the GDB puppies in
their green vests about town, and all the tales -- some no doubt apocryphal
-- of how perfect and completely controlled they are. /smile/ I heard
many, many of these stories when my unvested pup was a wild and bouncy young
thing early in her socialization. Since I started her a 7 months, when she
first came into my life, and she had no prior training, civilizing her
excitable, willful poodleness was quite the adventure. /grin/
Really, I guess, it depends on the dog, the raisers, where and how the dog
was raised, etc. Maybe what I should have said is that I would not make as
many assumptions with a program dog as I do with Mitzi. Also, I would feel
a different sort of responsibility with the program dog because so much of
others' time, work and expense went into its training and into getting that
dog and I together. I think. /smile/ It probably would depend on the dog
and its energy level and so forth, whether I would give it as much freedom
as I do Mitzi. Also, it would depend a lot on my lifestyle at the time. If
I'm all miss great-outdoors, always going camping and hiking and the like as
I plan, then I will request that a prospective dog be suited to those
activities.
If I find myself getting back into the workaholic, busy consultant scene
again and just wonder every now and then why I never have time to go hiking,
then I would manage the dog differently... Huh.
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:42 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: [nagdu] Poodles, and program dogs always under control
Hi Tami.
I don't know that I agree with you about poodles always coming back. I
grew up with poodles, and two of them escaped on separate occasions. ONe
ran a few blocks, and the other ended up way across town. They were both
males, which might make a difference.
I also don't know about program-raised dogs always being under control. I
strongly suspect that they are treated like pets in the raiser home. They
are on leash out in public, but, if they're raised on a farm, I think they
run about with the other animals. This is just a suspicion, of course.
None of my program-raised dogs has been the least confused by given the
freedom of a big yard, though most have preferred some human company out
there. But then they're people-oriented dogs to start with.
Tracy
> Well, again, I don't recommend it for everyone, I know it's a bit risky.
> I
> grew up with ranch dogs, so working a dog off leash is just habit and
> natural to me. My decision to allow Mitzi more freedom than is normally
> considered prudent has a lot to do with her breed instincts, as well. The
> poodle way seems to be to go out ahead, then come back, or to run around
> in
> a wide circle, then come back. Sort of like a yo-yo or a paddle ball;
> it's
> like there's an invisible string or rubber band that brings the poodle
> back
> at a set distance. So even from the beginning, I've been able to allow
> her
> to run in the park in our old neighborhood that was only paritally
> enclosed.
> All of the other neighborhood dogs that came there to play off leash had
> good enough manners that they would stay inside the fence and not go
> bolting
> outside the gate, so she also had good examples around her and learned
> boundaries from them. She did scare the wits out of me a time or two, but
> there was not a lot of traffic in the area and it was a school zone, so
> that
> somewhat limited the risk. We will not discuss the time she got away from
> the dog walk and ran home -- across a busy street. Heart attack city!
> But
> she was fine, even though she was all tangled up in the retractable leash
> she was wearing. After that, the dog walker only took her to fully
> enclosed
> parks.
>
> Okay, now that I've given some caveat and some of my reasons for deciding
> to
> live dangerously with my sweet precious, I'll talk a little about off
> leash
> obedience.
>
> Basically, the dog obeys certain commands when not on leash and at a
> distance from the handler. There's a competition level, and the tasks can
> be quite complex. It often involves hand gestures as well as spoken
> commands.
>
> The most important task is recall! When you call the dog, it needs to
> come,
> every time. I used food reinforcement, even downright bribery, to set
> that
> behavior, and I still give food reinforcements at least 99 percent of the
> time, even though she's been reliable in that for quite a while. I also
> used food reinforcements heavily in the matter of heeling, which was a
> real
> weakness for her. For negative reinforcement, of course, I simply put her
> back on leash, thus limiting her cherished freedom and cramping her style.
> /smile/ If she's been especially snotty, I will put her in a tight heel
> on
> leash, and she really hates that. So she's motivated to be good, stay in
> bounds, etc. "In bounds" is a command I came up with by default, but it
> works. The clicker comes in really handy for reinforcing that one or any
> commands carried out at a distance. I also taught her not to bother other
> people and dogs when we meet them (though in our woodland walk, I do my
> best
> to time it so that we're not going to meet a lot of either. She knows
> "out
> of the way" for when a bike or skater is coming up and she needs to get
> off
> the path. I actually taught her that one so that she would pay attention
> to
> what was around her on leash and in harness when she was a flighty young
> thing. "Pay attention" is another of our ad hoc commands.
>
> There's also "leave it," "drop it," and the like to keep her from getting
> into what she shouldn't. And I keep a bell on her collar to jingle with
> the
> tags, so I know where she is and have some idea of her movements. I
> expose
> her to new situations on leash, of course, and take care where I do my
> training to limit the risks to her. If I can hear traffic, I put her back
> on leash and am very strict when we're crossing a road. If she starts to
> step forward, or if I step forward and realize there's a car coming after
> all, I show fear when backing up to reinforce the idea cars are dangerous.
> Just in case one of those fluke situations puts her in a position to be
> loose near traffic. I don't know that that will save her, but it improves
> the odds.
>
> I don't' know if that's a very cogent explanation. You can start training
> off-leash in the house, just as part of obedience practice, and you can
> extend it into the yard if you have one. If you can find an enclosed dog
> off leash area with a few distractions but not to many dangers (ha!),
> that's
> also a good place to practice. I've discovered that my quirky curly one
> is
> stronger in her on-leash and in-harness obedience when I've worked with
> her
> at times when she has the freedom to rebel. I guess that makes it her
> choice, which is okay. If I'm making her do that, it's an imposition.
> /smile/
>
> Honestly, I wound't even attempt most of that with a program dog, simply
> because that dog would have been raised to be under control at all times.
> Mitzi spent her first 7 months on an acreage with other dogs who all had
> the
> run of the place, so she learned about the great outdoors and the dangers
> from them and from puppy experience, just like the dogs I grew up with.
> She
> also learned good pack etiquette, so I've had a lot of freedom to have her
> around other off-leash dogs because she knows how to play and socialize
> safely. I do pick the area and make it a point to know the other dogs, of
> course! And their owners. And I establish pack dominance with them, so I
> have a moderate contol over their behavior just in case.
>
> But a dog raised to be under control at all times, to be obedience to the
> handler's decisions instead of going out and making its own choices and
> mistakes would not be a good canditate for woodland romping because it
> would
> not know the dangers or how to think for itself in that situation. So I
> would really limit the freedom of that type of dog a lot more than I do
> Mitzi's. It's sort of like the difference between riding a ranch horse at
> a
> wild gallop over rocks and streams and hills and fallen trees vs. trying
> the
> same thing with a more genteely raised stable horse. The ranch horse has
> been galloping madly about the rough countryside with its herd since it
> was
> born, so you can just have all the exhilaration of staying on the horse
> while it flies fleetly over the terrain. If you're on a stable raised
> horse
> and it bolts out in the open country, get it under control immediately or
> just get off mid-flight. The horse is less likely to break a leg without
> you, and you do not want it to take you down with it. Guide dogs and
> other
> city raised dogs fall under the same principle, I think. They have the
> yen
> to run wild, run free and chase birds and squirrels... They just don't
> know
> how to do it safely.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Nicole B. Torcolini
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:09 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> Can you explain exactly what you mean by off leash training and what it
> entitles?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
>
> Linda,
>
> Good point about the different experiences between a pet dog and a guide
> dog. Because of the physical problems I'm finally on the verge of
> recovering from, I made the decision early to give Mitzi extensive
> off-leash
> time and training, to improve our odds if she does get loose. Which she
> has
> a couple of times, but I was able to recall her. It's an unorthodox
> decision, given the value of her training and her importance to me, but I
> felt it was the best choice for us. Also, I ate lots of Tums during her
> youth. /smile/
>
> It wouldn't be practical for guide dog schools to do that with their dogs
> as
> a matter of practice, or for the majority of guide dog handlers to
> practice
> it, either. Now that I'm able to reliable hold onto my girl, believe me I
> do, except for when I mean to be working on off-leash stuff. I plan to
> add
> hiking and camping into my lifestyle as I get my health back and can have
> a
> lifestyle, so that training will come in handy, I think. Also, Tums.
> /smile/
>
> I'm sorry about your friend's dog. I can't imagine, and it can happen so
> easily with just one forgetful moment. I'm glad you did not lose your dog
> when that happened!
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Linda Gwizdak
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:38 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
> What a shame about the guide dog getting hit by a car. did the dog die or
> was he really hurt and Todd had to pay thousands of dollars in vet bills?
>
> There's a woman here who had a guide dog get let out of the house. The dog
> saw the woman's daughter across the street and he ran across the street
> but
> never made it across. The dog was struck by a car and killed.
>
> Shortly after I came home with a brand new guide dog, my roommate opened
> the
>
> front door to get the mail. She didn't tell me she had the door open and
> out
>
> ran my dog! She ran up and down the sidewalk and, thank God, didn't cross
> the busy street we lived on. I had to tackle her as she ran by and injured
> my knees - now full of arthritis!
>
> Both of these things happened by carelessness of people in leaving the
> doors
>
> or gates open. Yes, our dogs are highly trained to avoid cars. But,they
> think that the cars are only dangerous when the dog is guiding us in
> harness - they learn to respect cars when they are guiding the instructor.
> The dogs don't generalize and realize that the cars are just as dangerous
> if
>
> the dog is loose and running in the street. Our dogs are just as
> vulernable
>
> as a pet dog - actually more - because some pet dogs have been hit or
> bumped
>
> by a car and they learned this valuable lesson. Our dogs do not get the
> chance to learn this lesson because they are never off leash outside
> unless
> in a secure fenced in area.
>
> It sounds like Todd was just careless and didn't think about any cats
> scaring the dog and - boom - the accident.
>
> Lets all remember to think about our surroundings when we decide to
> release
> our dogs.
>
> Regards,
>
> Linda and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 5:18 AM
> Subject: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>
>
>> http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=10412802
>> <http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=10412802&nav=menu188_2>
>> &nav=menu188_2
>> Missing guide dog found struck by car
>> Jennie Runevitch/Eyewitness News
>>
>> Indianapolis - A man who lost his very independence this week is
>> now in need of a new companion.
>>
>> Todd Wills is missing his best friend, but his 85-pound black lab
>> was more than a pet.
>>
>> "I just can't imagine not being with him. I'm already feeling
>> lost," Wills said. "It's like I've lost my sight all over again."
>>
>>
>> Bruin was Todd's link to life. The highly-trained, highly
>> expensive guide dog had served as Todd's eyes for three years.
>>
>> "Hopefully other people will understand the difference between a
>> pet and a guide dog. I mean, he's still kind of a pet, but he's a
>> part of me and I'm missing a chunk of me," Wills said.
>>
>> Bruin disappeared early Thursday morning after getting spooked by
>> a cat at his home on Broadway Street.
>>
>> "We were coming in the door and I stopped at the screen door to
>> let him off his harness and leash so he could run in and a cat
>> charged him. I stepped out immediately started calling him
>> and...nothing," Wills said.
>>
>> Late Thursday, Wills got the news he'd feared. A police officer
>> came to his door and said they found Bruin near the corner of
>> 40th and College. The guide dog had been hit by a car.
>>
>> "They matched the collar up and he wasn't in good shape.
>> Apparently, whoever hit him didn't feel it was important enough
>> to stop," Wills said.
>>
>> Todd's companion, his source of independence, was gone, and their
>> important bond was broken.
>>
>> "It just doesn't feel right to walk around without him. I find
>> myself, you know, crying over Bruin all day and then I'm thinking
>> that I need to get another guide dog so I can continue my
>> independence," Wills said.
>>
>> But guide dogs can cost tens of thousands of dollars and require
>> extensive training. While most of the cost is underwritten by
>> donations, Todd says he will still have to pay several thousand
>> dollars out-of-pocket, which is difficult since he's on
>> disability and in school.
>> "That makes it a challenge to put all this together," Wills
>> said.
>>
>> For now, Todd is coping with loss and in need of another guide
>> through life.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ginger Bennett Kutsch
>> Morristown, NJ
>>
>>
>>
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