[nagdu] Poodles, and program dogs always under control

[Tracy Carcione]

Nicole:  The smell mute switch!  That's good.  I'll have to remember that.

Tami:  Well, maybe they have perfect puppies in Portland, but elsewhere...
I feel pretty sure that my Benny did whatever he pleased as a pup.  And
Echo as well.  And likely most of my gang.  I can just picture their
but-I'm-a-cute-puppy look.
Tracy

> Also, some dogs have what I like to call the smell mute switch, I.E. I'm
> busy smelling and am temporarily completely disconnected from the rest of
> the world.  Lexia is not bad about it; usually a slight verbal or leash
> correction is enough to bring her back to earth, but our border collie mix
> has one of the worst cases of it.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Poodles, and program dogs always under control
>
>
> Tracy,
>
> I'm only going by the few poodles I know, whose handlers feel comfortable
> enough with them to let them run in partially enclosed parks.  Mitzi is
> definitely a velcro poodle, so I was happy when she started giving me more
> than 18 inches of personal space.  /smile/  There is a pair of poodles
> that
> come to our new dog park, and one is super-velcro like Mitzi.  The other
> runs around more and isn't always checking in, so the owner has to call
> her
> back every now and then.  Which just goes to show, you can't be too
> willing
> to act on your assumptions about breed traits.  /smile/
>
> My assumptions about program-raised dogs come from all the GDB puppies in
> their green vests about town, and all the tales -- some no doubt
> apocryphal
> -- of how perfect and completely controlled they are.  /smile/  I heard
> many, many of these stories when my unvested pup was a wild and bouncy
> young
> thing early in her socialization.  Since I started her a 7 months, when
> she
> first came into my life, and she had no prior training, civilizing her
> excitable, willful poodleness was quite the adventure.  /grin/
>
> Really, I guess, it depends on the dog, the raisers, where and how the dog
> was raised, etc.  Maybe what I should have said is that I would not make
> as
> many assumptions with a program dog as I do with Mitzi.  Also, I would
> feel
> a different sort of responsibility with the program dog because so much of
> others' time, work and expense went into its training and into getting
> that
> dog and I together.  I think.  /smile/  It probably would depend on the
> dog
> and its energy level and so forth, whether I would give it as much freedom
> as I do Mitzi.  Also, it would depend a lot on my lifestyle at the time.
> If
> I'm all miss great-outdoors, always going camping and hiking and the like
> as
> I plan, then I will request that a prospective dog be suited to those
> activities.
>
> If I find myself getting back into the workaholic, busy consultant scene
> again and just wonder every now and then why I never have time to go
> hiking,
> then I would manage the dog differently...  Huh.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Tracy Carcione
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:42 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] Poodles, and program dogs always under control
>
> Hi Tami.
> I don't know that I agree with you about poodles always coming back.  I
> grew up with poodles, and two of them escaped on separate occasions.  ONe
> ran a few blocks, and the other ended up way across town.  They were both
> males, which might make a difference.
>
> I also don't know about program-raised dogs always being under control.  I
> strongly suspect that they are treated like pets in the raiser home.  They
> are on leash out in public, but, if they're raised on a farm, I think they
> run about with the other animals.  This is just a suspicion, of course.
> None of my program-raised dogs has been the least confused by given the
> freedom of a big yard, though most have preferred some human company out
> there.  But then they're people-oriented dogs to start with.
> Tracy
>
>
>> Well, again, I don't recommend it for everyone, I know it's a bit risky.
>> I
>> grew up with ranch dogs, so working a dog off leash is just habit and
>> natural to me.  My decision to allow Mitzi more freedom than is normally
>> considered prudent has a lot to do with her breed instincts, as well.
>> The
>> poodle way seems to be to go out ahead, then come back, or to run around
>> in
>> a wide circle, then come back.  Sort of like a yo-yo or a paddle ball;
>> it's
>> like there's an invisible string or rubber band that brings the poodle
>> back
>> at a set distance.  So even from the beginning, I've been able to allow
>> her
>> to run in the park in our old neighborhood that was only paritally
>> enclosed.
>> All of the other neighborhood dogs that came there to play off leash had
>> good enough manners that they would stay inside the fence and not go
>> bolting
>> outside the gate, so she also had good examples around her and learned
>> boundaries from them.  She did scare the wits out of me a time or two,
>> but
>> there was not a lot of traffic in the area and it was a school zone, so
>> that
>> somewhat limited the risk.  We will not discuss the time she got away
>> from
>> the dog walk and ran home -- across a busy street.  Heart attack city!
>> But
>> she was fine, even though she was all tangled up in the retractable
>> leash
>> she was wearing.  After that, the dog walker only took her to fully
>> enclosed
>> parks.
>>
>> Okay, now that I've given some caveat and some of my reasons for
>> deciding
>> to
>> live dangerously with my sweet precious, I'll talk a little about off
>> leash
>> obedience.
>>
>> Basically, the dog obeys certain commands when not on leash and at a
>> distance from the handler.  There's a competition level, and the tasks
>> can
>> be quite complex.  It often involves hand gestures as well as spoken
>> commands.
>>
>> The most important task is recall!  When you call the dog, it needs to
>> come,
>> every time.  I used food reinforcement, even downright bribery, to set
>> that
>> behavior, and I still give food reinforcements at least 99 percent of
>> the
>> time, even though she's been reliable in that for quite a while.  I also
>> used food reinforcements heavily in the matter of heeling, which was a
>> real
>> weakness for her.  For negative reinforcement, of course, I simply put
>> her
>> back on leash, thus limiting her cherished freedom and cramping her
>> style.
>> /smile/  If she's been especially snotty, I will put her in a tight heel
>> on
>> leash, and she really hates that.  So she's motivated to be good, stay
>> in
>> bounds, etc.  "In bounds" is a command I came up with by default, but it
>> works.  The clicker comes in really handy for reinforcing that one or
>> any
>> commands carried out at a distance.  I also taught her not to bother
>> other
>> people and dogs when we meet them (though in our woodland walk, I do my
>> best
>> to time it so that we're not going to meet a lot of either.  She knows
>> "out
>> of the way" for when a bike or skater is coming up and she needs to get
>> off
>> the path.  I actually taught her that one so that she would pay
>> attention
>> to
>> what was around her on leash and in harness when she was a flighty young
>> thing.  "Pay attention" is another of our ad hoc commands.
>>
>> There's also "leave it," "drop it," and the like to keep her from
>> getting
>> into what she shouldn't.  And I keep a bell on her collar to jingle with
>> the
>> tags, so I know where she is and have some idea of her movements.  I
>> expose
>> her to new situations on leash, of course, and take care where I do my
>> training to limit the risks to her.  If I can hear traffic, I put her
>> back
>> on leash and am very strict when we're crossing a road.  If she starts
>> to
>> step forward, or if I step forward and realize there's a car coming
>> after
>> all, I show fear when backing up to reinforce the idea cars are
>> dangerous.
>> Just in case one of those fluke situations puts her in a position to be
>> loose near traffic.  I don't know that that will save her, but it
>> improves
>> the odds.
>>
>> I don't' know if that's a very cogent explanation.  You can start
>> training
>> off-leash in the house, just as part of obedience practice, and you can
>> extend it into the yard if you have one.  If you can find an enclosed
>> dog
>> off leash area with a few distractions but not to many dangers (ha!),
>> that's
>> also a good place to practice.  I've discovered that my quirky curly one
>> is
>> stronger in her on-leash and in-harness obedience when I've worked with
>> her
>> at times when she has the freedom to rebel.  I guess that makes it her
>> choice, which is okay.  If I'm making her do that, it's an imposition.
>> /smile/
>>
>> Honestly, I wound't even attempt most of that with a program dog, simply
>> because that dog would have been raised to be under control at all
>> times.
>> Mitzi spent her first 7 months on an acreage with other dogs who all had
>> the
>> run of the place, so she learned about the great outdoors and the
>> dangers
>> from them and from puppy experience, just like the dogs I grew up with.
>> She
>> also learned good pack etiquette, so I've had a lot of freedom to have
>> her
>> around other off-leash dogs because she knows how to play and socialize
>> safely.  I do pick the area and make it a point to know the other dogs,
>> of
>> course!  And their owners.  And I establish pack dominance with them, so
>> I
>> have a moderate contol over their behavior just in case.
>>
>> But a dog raised to be under control at all times, to be obedience to
>> the
>> handler's decisions instead of going out and making its own choices and
>> mistakes would not be a good canditate for woodland romping because it
>> would
>> not know the dangers or how to think for itself in that situation.  So I
>> would really  limit the freedom of that type of dog a lot more than I do
>> Mitzi's.  It's sort of like the difference between riding a ranch horse
>> at
>> a
>> wild gallop over rocks and streams and hills and fallen trees vs. trying
>> the
>> same thing with a more genteely raised stable horse.  The ranch horse
>> has
>> been galloping madly about the rough countryside with its herd since it
>> was
>> born, so you can just have all the exhilaration of staying on the horse
>> while it flies fleetly over the terrain.  If you're on a stable raised
>> horse
>> and it bolts out in the open country, get it under control immediately
>> or
>> just get off mid-flight.  The horse is less likely to break a leg
>> without
>> you, and you do not want it to take you down with it.  Guide dogs and
>> other
>> city raised dogs fall under the same principle, I think.  They have the
>> yen
>> to run wild, run free and chase birds and squirrels...  They just don't
>> know
>> how to do it safely.
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Nicole B. Torcolini
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 12:09 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> Can you explain exactly what you mean by off leash training and what it
>> entitles?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>>
>> Linda,
>>
>> Good point about the different experiences between a pet dog and a guide
>> dog.  Because of the physical problems I'm finally on the verge of
>> recovering from, I made the decision early to give Mitzi extensive
>> off-leash
>> time and training, to improve our odds if she does get loose.  Which she
>> has
>> a couple of times, but I was able to recall her.  It's an unorthodox
>> decision, given the value of her training and her importance to me, but
>> I
>> felt it was the best choice for us.  Also, I ate lots of Tums during her
>> youth.  /smile/
>>
>> It wouldn't be practical for guide dog schools to do that with their
>> dogs
>> as
>> a matter of practice, or for the majority of guide dog handlers to
>> practice
>> it, either.  Now that I'm able to reliable hold onto my girl, believe me
>> I
>> do, except for when I mean to be working on off-leash stuff.  I plan to
>> add
>> hiking and camping into my lifestyle as I get my health back and can
>> have
>> a
>> lifestyle, so that training will come in handy, I think.  Also, Tums.
>> /smile/
>>
>> I'm sorry about your friend's dog.  I can't imagine, and it can happen
>> so
>> easily with just one forgetful moment.  I'm glad you did not lose your
>> dog
>> when that happened!
>>
>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Linda Gwizdak
>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:38 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>> What a shame about the guide dog getting hit by a car. did the dog die
>> or
>> was he really hurt and Todd had to pay thousands of dollars in vet
>> bills?
>>
>> There's a woman here who had a guide dog get let out of the house. The
>> dog
>> saw the woman's daughter across the street and he ran across the street
>> but
>> never made it across.  The dog was struck by a car and killed.
>>
>> Shortly after I came home with a brand new guide dog, my roommate opened
>> the
>>
>> front door to get the mail. She didn't tell me she had the door open and
>> out
>>
>> ran my dog!  She ran up and down the sidewalk and, thank God, didn't
>> cross
>> the busy street we lived on. I had to tackle her as she ran by and
>> injured
>> my knees - now full of arthritis!
>>
>> Both of these things happened by carelessness of people in leaving the
>> doors
>>
>> or gates open. Yes, our dogs are highly trained to avoid cars. But,they
>> think that the cars are only dangerous when the dog is guiding us in
>> harness - they learn to respect cars when they are guiding the
>> instructor.
>> The dogs don't generalize and realize that the cars are just as
>> dangerous
>> if
>>
>> the dog is loose and running in the street.  Our dogs are just as
>> vulernable
>>
>> as a pet dog - actually more - because some pet dogs have been hit or
>> bumped
>>
>> by a car and they learned this valuable lesson. Our dogs do not get the
>> chance to learn this lesson because they are never off leash outside
>> unless
>> in a secure fenced in area.
>>
>> It sounds like Todd was just careless and didn't think about any cats
>> scaring the dog and  - boom - the accident.
>>
>> Lets all remember to think about our surroundings when we decide to
>> release
>> our dogs.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Linda and Landon
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ginger Kutsch" <gingerKutsch at yahoo.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 5:18 AM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>
>>
>>> http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=10412802
>>> <http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=10412802&nav=menu188_2>
>>> &nav=menu188_2
>>> Missing guide dog found struck by car
>>> Jennie Runevitch/Eyewitness News
>>>
>>> Indianapolis - A man who lost his very independence this week is
>>> now in need of a new companion.
>>>
>>> Todd Wills is missing his best friend, but his 85-pound black lab
>>> was more than a pet.
>>>
>>> "I just can't imagine not being with him. I'm already feeling
>>> lost," Wills said. "It's like I've lost my sight all over again."
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruin was Todd's link to life. The highly-trained, highly
>>> expensive guide dog had served as Todd's eyes for three years.
>>>
>>> "Hopefully other people will understand the difference between a
>>> pet and a guide dog. I mean, he's still kind of a pet, but he's a
>>> part of me and I'm missing a chunk of me," Wills said.
>>>
>>> Bruin disappeared early Thursday morning after getting spooked by
>>> a cat at his home on Broadway Street.
>>>
>>> "We were coming in the door and I stopped at the screen door to
>>> let him off his harness and leash so he could run in and a cat
>>> charged him. I stepped out immediately started calling him
>>> and...nothing," Wills said.
>>>
>>> Late Thursday, Wills got the news he'd feared. A police officer
>>> came to his door and said they found Bruin near the corner of
>>> 40th and College. The guide dog had been hit by a car.
>>>
>>> "They matched the collar up and he wasn't in good shape.
>>> Apparently, whoever hit him didn't feel it was important enough
>>> to stop," Wills said.
>>>
>>> Todd's companion, his source of independence, was gone, and their
>>> important bond was broken.
>>>
>>> "It just doesn't feel right to walk around without him. I find
>>> myself, you know, crying over Bruin all day and then I'm thinking
>>> that I need to get another guide dog so I can continue my
>>> independence," Wills said.
>>>
>>> But guide dogs can cost tens of thousands of dollars and require
>>> extensive training. While most of the cost is underwritten by
>>> donations, Todd says he will still have to pay several thousand
>>> dollars out-of-pocket, which is difficult since he's on
>>> disability and in school.
>>> "That makes it a challenge to put all this together,"  Wills
>>> said.
>>>
>>> For now, Todd is coping with loss and in need of another guide
>>> through life.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ginger Bennett Kutsch
>>> Morristown, NJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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