[nagdu] Clicker Treats RE: dog corrections

[Tracy Carcione]

Hi Ann.
Those are some interesting ideas.  It is good to know that an expert
thinks one should always treat with the click.  And I'll have to think
about "extending the chain."
But other things I disagree with, though I can keep an open mind.  I have
had 6 dogs now, and I've never had a real problem with the dog not
stopping for the downcurb.  Sure, it happens occasionally, but I correct
the dog, and we're good again for a very long time.  A couple corrections
for it when the dog is new, and it's probably good for the rest of the
dog's working life.  I really don't think that Ben is going about worrying
about when I might scold him or yank his leash. It just doesn't seem to
make that much of an impression.  So, while I might consider clicking and
treating at the downcurb to see if it made Ben mosey up there a bit
quicker...well, the jury's still out on that idea.  At any rate, he
doesn't seem at all anxious to get to a destination.  The journey is too
much fun, I think.
And I'm not sure that correcting him at the downcurb, say for sniffing the
lightpole, undoes everything positive that's gone before.  He gets praised
all along the way.  He gets patted when we're standing at the curb. 
Praise and pats aren't food, but they are nice.  And an instructor told me
that the work is its own reward for him.  He wants to be moving along,
doing his thing.  I'm not sure why, but it does seem to be true.

Ben is a fairly low-energy dog.  He likes to make himself comfortable and
turn himself into a stuffed animal.  I really enjoy this trait.  It makes
him an excellent dog for an office worker like me.  I think the trouble
getting him up is because of two things.  First, I made the mistake of
laughing at him rolling on his back when I called him to come.  He is
cute, but I must harden my heart.  Second, I think he doesn't find walking
around the office very rewarding.  Bo-ring, he would say.  If it's a time
when we usually go outside, and I pick up my purse and such, he's right
there.  It's when he figures we're just going to walk around inside that
he stays under the desk. So I have to figure out a way to make it more
rewarding for him, and the clicker may be the way to go.
Tracy and Ben



> Hi, Tracy,
>
> It may be that some people use the clicker as you have described.
> However,
> Bob Bailey, the Father of Applied Operant Conditioning, who trained many
> thousands of animals of many species, came to the conclusion that behavior
> was best maintained by always following the click (conditioned reinforcer)
> with the treat (primary reinforcer).  Ben has obviously been talking to
> Bob
> Bailey, and as we clicker trainers always say when there are discussions
> of
> theory and practice, "Go to people for opinions; go to the animals for
> answers."
>
> The click is always followed by a primary reinforcer, but that does not
> mean
> that it must be followed by a treat.  Anything that the dog really wants
> and
> will see as reinforcing will serve as a reinforcer.  Some dogs will
> happily
> respond for the chance to chase a ball or squeaky toy or to play a game of
> tug.  But food reinforcers are quick and convenient, and as Ben is a
> Labrador, I suspect that food reinforcers might be tops in his book.
>
> Now, that doesn't mean that you always have to click and treat when Ben
> comes promptly out from under the desk, or whatever the desired behavior
> is.
> In the stage of training where you are trying to establish a new behavior
> or
> to improve a known behavior, you always want to click and treat, because
> you
> want to strengthen the behavior by building up a strong reinforcement
> history for that behavior.  You might even want to go back a step in the
> training and click and treat for the first little piece of the behavior
> you
> are looking for, like Ben lifting his head, starting to move, or even
> yawning, in response to your picking up his harness or unfastening his
> leash
> or whatever things you do before asking him to come out.
>
> You could click one of these first steps to getting up and coming out, and
> then present the treat for him to take as he gets to his feet and comes
> out
> from under the desk.  I think this approach would have the added benefit
> of
> encouraging him to come out from under the desk quickly and happily.  I
> might also, once he comes out and receives his treat, then hold out his
> harness and when he dives into it, click and treat once again.
>
> Once the behavior is strong and consistent, you can, if you really want
> to,
> begin to fade the click and treat for that particular behavior of coming
> out
> from under the desk quickly.  The way you would do this is to leave out
> both
> the click and treat sometimes when you call him to come out from under the
> desk.  I would, however, keep using a click and treat for something
> further
> down the chain, like getting into his harness.
>
> You can keep reducing the percentage of times that you click and treat his
> coming out from under the desk, and Ben will let you know if you have
> reduced it too far, because the behavior will begin to deteriorate.  Or
> you
> can begin to raise your criteria by clicking and treating only the trials
> when he comes out a bit faster or more enthusiastically than average.
>
> You can also add more behaviors to the chain before clicking and treating,
> such as ben's coming into heel position before you start off, or his
> stepping out at the appropriate speed when you say "forward", or whatever
> next cues you might be accustomed to giving him, like "find the door" or
> "outside" or whatever.  The good feelings associated with the click and
> reinforcement at the end of the chain of behaviors will move backward
> along
> the chain so that the opportunity to do each subsequent behavior becomes a
> reinforcer for the previous behavior.  But the chain of behaviors has to
> be
> built link by link; each behavior has to be reinforced at first so that it
> will be strong; then each behavior has to be linked to the next in pairs;
> then the whole chain can be reinforced at some arbitrary point, before
> starting up again on the next chain of behaviors.
>
> I have found that I usually choose to end a chain of guide behaviors at
> the
> point when the guide has successfully stopped at a down curb or street
> crossing.  There are at least a couple of reasons for this; one is that we
> are stopping at that point anyway, so it seems like a good point to click
> and treat the entire string of behaviors which occurred to get us there,
> like going around obstacles, lefts and rights, changes of pace, avoiding
> distractions, etc.; another reason is that stopping at curbs is a behavior
> that I really want to keep on a high level of reinforcement, and, at least
> in my experience, it is one that guide dogs tend to begin to neglect if it
> is not highly reinforced.
>
> Here's something for you to mull over and play around with in connection
> with the idea of behavior chains and the concept that each behavior is
> reinforced by the opportunity to go on to the next behavior and that the
> emotions run backward up the chain of behaviors.  Say you call Ben out
> from
> under the desk, harness him up, set off on your way, go out of the
> building,
> turn onto the sidewalk, weave in and out of pedestrian traffic, avoid
> obstacles such as trash bins, parking meters, open cellar doors and
> vehicles
> parked on the sidewalk, etc.,--and of course, you are carrying on the
> usual
> conversation with Ben during all this time, praising him, cueing him,
> encouraging him, whatever you usually do--and then he fails to stop at the
> curb.  I assume that you would apply a leash correction or some other
> definite punisher at this point to reduce the likelihood that this error
> would be repeated.
>
> Well, the unpleasant or stressful emotion in the dog caused by the
> correction also travels back along the entire chain of events which
> preceded
> it.  If this string of events occurs frequently, the dog can become
> reluctant to start the entire chain of behaviors.  He may not jump into
> the
> harness with such enthusiasm, or he might not be so eager and quick to
> come
> out from under his desk.  I think that we often see this type of behavior
> develop in guide dogs, and we attribute it to stress in the dog caused by
> the rigors of guide life, or to burn out, or the aging process.
>
> If, instead, we habitually click and reinforce stopping at the curb or
> street crossing, we are positively reinforcing all the behaviors in the
> chain which preceded that stop.  This makes the whole emotional
> environment
> of the guide work very pleasant and positive.
>
> Here's another thing that I have been observing and wondering about in
> connection with guide work and reinforcement.  It seems to me that many
> guide dogs come to be in a great hurry to get to the destination, to dive
> under that desk, almost as if they are in a hurry to get to the "safe
> place"
> at the end of the trip.  I'm wondering why this might be so, from the
> dog's
> point of view.
>
> Perhaps it is that being able to rest and relax is a primary reinforcer
> which comes at the end of the behavior chain that constitutes guide work.
> But the demeanor of many dogs in this situation seems to tell me that it
> might be something else, that they are hurrying to get to the end of the
> route and dive under the desk because once there, they are no longer at
> risk
> of making a mistake and experiencing punishment.  In other words, the
> entire
> sequence of behaviors has been associated with punishment or the risk of
> punishment which sometimes occurs along the chain.
>
> My experience has been that punctuating chains of guide behavior with the
> click and treat serves to make the entire guide work process more
> reinforcing to the dog.  They seem to be more able to relax and enjoy the
> process, rather than feeling that they need to hurry to get to the end of
> the route.  This also seems to allow them to perform more precisely--if
> they're not in a hurry to get to the end of the route, they are less
> likely
> to run that curb, and more likely to stop at the curb, giving you the
> opportunity to click and reinforce the entire chain of behaviors that led
> to
> that point.  If they are enjoying the process and not focused on the need
> to
> get to the destination, they have more attention available to notice
> obstacles, uneven or slippery footing, overhanging tree branches or
> awnings,, etc., and are therefore more likely to respond to these
> conditions
> as desired and to earn praise and reinforcement, which again reinforces
> the
> entire process.
>
> Tracy, I in no way mean to imply that any of my speculative thoughts above
> apply to Ben or to the situation you are asking about related to his
> coming
> out from under the desk.  The short answer to your question is that it has
> been found to be most effective to always treat when we click.  But that
> doesn't mean that we always have to click a certain behavior.  And it
> doesn't mean that we always have to click before giving a treat.
>
> Using the clicker and positive reinforcement is a method of training new
> behaviors and a way of keeping important behaviors strong and reliable.
> The
> purpose of the click is to mark precisely the behavior we want to make
> stronger.  The purpose of the treat after the click is to associate the
> performance of that precise behavior with good things happening and good
> feelings, so that that behavior will be more likely to occur in the same
> situation in the future.
>
> Once a behavior has been "trained" to the desired level, we can fade the
> click and treat from that behavior.  If the behavior deteriorates, we know
> that we have faded the reinforcement too quickly, and we can go back and
> retrain or refresh that behavior.  At the same time, we can incorporate
> the
> new behavior into behavior chains which are reinforced.  And we will
> probably be using the click and reward to train other new behaviors or to
> improve other behaviors.
>
> I'd love to hear your thoughts on all these musings.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tracy Carcione" <carcione at access.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 10:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Clicker Treats RE: dog corrections
>
>
>> It is my understanding that, once the dog understands the behavior being
>> clicked for, one is supposed to sometimes click with no treat.  For
>> instance, Ben loves his cave under my desk at work, and he takes a while
>> to come out when I call him.  So I call him, and click and treat when he
>> comes out and touches my hand.  So I thought that the next step is to
>> call
>> him, and, sometimes, click and treat, and other times just click.  Then
>> I
>> can gradually phase out the click.  This is what I thought was sometimes
>> called "The Las Vegas method", because the dog never knows when he might
>> hit the jackpot, so he will keep playing the game, just in case.
>>
>> Of course, Ben is very clever, so if I skip the treat more than once in
>> a
>> row, he stops coming out again.  Have I said that he's a brat?
>>
>> Have I got the method right, or am I missing something?
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>> That is very interesting that you do not always use the treats with the
>>> clicker.  AT GDB, they told us that we must use a treat every time that
>>> we
>>> click the clicker, even if it was an accident.  We were strongly
>>> discouraged
>>> from doing clicker training around other dogs.  I was reminded why the
>>> other
>>> day when I was in a pet shop with a training area.  Someone was doing
>>> clicker training with their dog, and Lexia was very interested.
>>> Luckily,
>>> I
>>> was not working her, as she was there for her bath.  I don't use
>>> clicker
>>> training too much as sometimes Lexia tries too hard for it and misses
>>> the
>>> point as she tries too hard to please in order to get the treat, but it
>>> certainly works well for teaching new commands.
>>
>>
>>
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