[nagdu] being reported to your school and thoughts onposativetraining methods
Tamara Smith-Kinney
tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Sun Aug 1 18:22:00 UTC 2010
Charlene,
I use reminder twitches on the leash with Mitzi to get her attention when
she's having distracto days. And occasionally, I will use a harness bump to
remind her to keep her mind on business, not on the smells at the side of
the road... Although she's so light, there was once when I was on the third
or fourth harness reminder and I kinda lifted her off her front feet too
quickly. Well, I was also uptight about the amount of traffic on the road.
Anyway, it didn't hurt her, but I know it looked bad, and one of the cars
honked at me. So, I suppose I was abusing my sweet, innocent dog. Sigh.
I have found that around other guide dog users my use of positive
reinforcement for the desirable behavior that takes the place for the
undersirable behavior confuses the heck out of them. Also, my reminder
twitches or even just a low utterance of Mitzi's name. I end up being told
a lot about how to do things the right way, at which point I start to feel
the conversation has become a bit strained. /smile/ The few times I've
given into peer pressure and used a sharper, more correction type approach
to something my then young dog was doing, I have lived to regret it. So now
I just sort of mumble something and maybe throw in the words "Operant
Conditioning" to see if that helps. If the other person is just commenting,
not lecturing, I will explain the principles I'm using more clearly, of
course. And it can be helpful to describe the chain of events from my
training perspective... Mitzi did X; I asked to her do Y; she did Y and I
rewarded her for doing Y instead of X.
Of course, I've also gotten really good feedback from other guide dog users,
especially at our first Convention, where they could observe what my dog and
I were doing together and play it back to me so that I was more aware then.
And they would offer a description of what we were supposed to be doing
instead... /smile/ So I learned a lot.
It's just the long, long lectures about how and why I need to correct my dog
as negative reinforcement that can cause me to grit my teeth. I know the
other handler is trying to be helpful and to ensure that I am safe,
according to the way they were taught, which is consistent with the training
of their dog. And the other handler would often include helpful information
as well about what the dog and I were supposed to be doing or should do in
some specific situation. Which was great, since I was learning how to be a
handler, as well, which seemed to be harder than training the dog in the
first place. /smile/
Anyway, it is good to see the changes. I'm sure it is difficult for the
programs to go from what has worked in the past for all these years to a
totally new behavioral philosophy that experts keep insisting will work
better. /smile/
While I'm babbling on, I would also like to mention that working from the
positive reinforcement approach takes a whole lot less energy than using
strong leash corrections for misbehavior. When Mitzi decides she wants to
be sniffy, I can use low reminders in a conversational tone or twitch her
leash with a finger instead of having to reach over and yank... So there's
ultimately less disruption to me and whoever else is around. I noticed
early on with the horses I trained using methods opposite those in use
around me that this was also the case. Training a guide dog has taught me
an awful lot more about the underlying philosophy and studies, and a lot of
new work has been done since I was a kid, so that there is now a formalized
approach to operant conditioning training. Finding a lot of other owner
trainers who use that approach has also been invaluable!
What I learned from them to increase my understanding and how to apply it,
also prepared me for Ms. Daisy... Just getting her to the point where I
could begin to do actual training was an adventure in creativity and
patience.
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Charlene Ota
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 2:35 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] being reported to your school and thoughts
onposativetraining methods
Hi, Meghan, I got my dog from Guide Dogs Victoria in Australia and it was an
interesting training experience compared with the schools I attended before.
The trainer that trained my dog used a lot of possitive reenforcement and
didn't rely much on leash corrections. My dog doesn't usually respond that
well to hard leash corrections as I don't think that was commonly used in
his training. He responds to my voice very well so I just have to change my
pitch and be more gruff or happy or whatever is called for. If he's a bit
distracted and not responding to my voice, I can pick up the leash and
jangle his chain a bit and that usually will bring him back on track nicely.
I remember once in an elevator at a national convention my dog was getting a
bit too interested in another dog. I vocally corrected him and he didn't
respond so I picked up the leash and rattled his chain a bit and spoke to
him and that was the end of it. The other handler commented something like
"well, what kind of a correction was that, that's not going to do much
good." I commented that it was enough for him, but I really didn't want to
get in an argument or anything because I know for most school's and the
training that we are given, that would have been considered a stupid leash
correction so I understand where the person was coming from.
I find not using hard leash corrections was something to get used to but
it's nice working with the dog this way. I haven't used the clicker. I think
the school uses it in some situations but it wasn't used with my dog. From
what I understand, some dogs do better with clicker than others. Guess it's
just like anything else.
But I do like the changes that are happening with guide dog training. Also,
part of it is in the breeding process, looking for more personality traits
for compliant dogs, for example. When I was in Australia, one of the
trainers was telling me that in this process, they ended up with dogs that
were too compliant for a time while trying to find the right balance.
If dog schools go in this sort of direction, it will be an adjustment for
some people. I know one person who is used to being pretty heavy-handed with
corrections and speaking rather harshly to their dogs, I think partly they
sometimes have control issues! (smile!) But when a dog is trained with
things like possitive reenforcement and probably clicker as well, you have
to change your ways, too. If a dog has been trained this way and you
maintain your old harsher ways, there's a good potential for breaking the
dog.
Charlene
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Meghan Whalen
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 4:18 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] being reported to your school and thoughts on
posativetraining methods
I entirely agree with you. I am so glad that I have immediate ownership of
my dog upon graduation. I'm also glad that the school she is from will
contact local athorities to investigate if they think there is abuse.
Thankfully, I haven't yet been reported, but I'm sure I'll only be lucky for
so long.
I must say though, that it is very very refreshing to see schools
introducing clicker training in their programs, and I hope they continue to
further adopt the practices around clicker. When used correctly, it is such
a wonderful tule. It also looks much better to the public to see fewer
leash corrections. The simple truth is that you have to look hard to find
training classes for pet dogs at this point that will encourage leash
corrections. All of the classes I have found myself in with my own pet dogs
have been centered on posative reinforcement. It is high time schools start
treating dogs the way the rest of the world finds it ethical to treat dogs.
I have been instructed to use clicker to shape a solid recall with Dayton,
to teach him to get into his training vest, to help teach him food refusal,
and I must say, the things he has learned with the aid of clicker, he is
more excited to do. He will more than willingly lay down or sit when I tell
him to, but he loves to come, to heal and to put his vest on, because these
are things which have involved clicker. He adores praise, so he's just as
happy to come to me for a nice scratch behind the ears and under the chin.
Anyways, I've gotten way off topic here. I am very interested in the
opinions of others on food rewards, clicker training and the rest of it. I
know a lot of people don't like the use of food rewards in guide work, and I
know old habits are hard to break, but there has to be a way to at least
lessen the need for correction. Maybe more intensive training needs to be
taken on by puppy raisers with food refusal, dog distractions and the rest
of it. Dayton is already learning food refusal, and I think that such an
early and entensive training process will benifit him in the long run. He
is learning that ignoring the food is not simply something that should be
done or he will receive a correction, he is learning that ignoring the food
is a posative thing. He is ignoring the food because he has posative
associations with ignoring it, not because he doesn't want to be slammed
with a correction.
Okay, I'm really done rambling now.
Meghan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie J" <julielj at windstream.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] being reported to your school
> As an owner trainer I am always fascinated by the phenomena of being
> reported or reporting to the schools various perceived indiscretions of
> guide dog use and abuse. Certainly I agree that there are horrible cases
> of abuse out there, but what I hear about 99% of the time are cases that
> involve lack of facts, lack of knowledge of guide dogs, revenge or just
> plain medaling.
>
> I honestly do not understand the whole concept of reports to the school.
> Why is that people will report to the school but rarely to local police or
> animal enforcement agencies? Why is it that people will rarely just go
> directly to the blind guide dog handler and ask what's going on?
>
> I truly believe that if we want change to occur at the guide dog programs
> it has to begin with us. I think calling the programs and making reports,
> even legitimate ones, perpetuates the programs custodial attitudes. Why
> not instead work with local law enforcement to address the situation? Why
> not instead directly confront the person about their behavior with their
> guide dog? Instead of offering judgment why not try some attempt at
> understanding?
>
> If I am missing something obvious here, please tell me. I really would
> like to understand this.
>
> Julie
>
>
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