[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

Margo and Arrow margo.downey at verizon.net
Mon Aug 2 02:33:56 UTC 2010 

Marion, I couldn't agree more. but, a lot of folks don't care if they own 
their dogs or not and that's fine.  what concerns me is that so many folks 
don't believe their schools are behaving in a custodial manner.

Margo andarrow
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership


> Margo,
>    I think the best approach is to help those who are unaware that there 
> are differences in ownership policy become aware of this fact. Whenever 
> someone either calls me or asks on this list about recommendations for 
> schools, I tell them I am not in a position to make any specific 
> recommendations, but I strongly suggest they choose a school that 
> transfers ownership upon graduation. I am of the opinion that this single 
> policy speaks volumes as to the school's true belief in the inherent 
> capacity of their consumers. After all, we just fought the State of 
> Missouri for taking a child away from its parents. If a blind person is 
> capable of raising children, they certainly are capable of caring for a 
> dog!
>
> fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
>
>> Linda, I couldn't agree with you more.  I don't know about shutting the 
>> schools down but perhaps revamping staff and policies.
>>
>> It makes me wonder if these schools screen their people enough or 
>> something's wrong.  Why can't they adopt Seeing eye's model that has 
>> worked for so long.
>>
>> but, if the staff and/or policies can't be revamped, yep, shut 'em down. 
>> Hope I still have friends after this post.  (smile).
>>
>> These schools train wonderful dogs but still don't trust their graduates.
>>
>> margo and Arrow
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:17 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> I changed the subject line of this.
>>>
>>> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having 
>>> real ownership like Seeing eye has.  That school that abuses blind 
>>> people and blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is 
>>> paternalism at its worse!  It should be closed down or become the next 
>>> target of NFB as the NAC places were during the seventies and eighties. 
>>> Maybe we're becoming too nice and have forgotten about our old tactics 
>>> that have WORKED.
>>>
>>> Now, protecting the dogs.  Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that 
>>> has worked for them for the past 81 years.  You screen your applicants. 
>>> You watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during class. 
>>> After the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to Animal 
>>> Control just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works and 
>>> the number of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small.  What 
>>> blind person would abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move around 
>>> without having to use a white cane?  Only someone who has other problems 
>>> and many schools are able to find this out before the person even goes 
>>> to the school.
>>>
>>> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!!  Shut 'em 
>>> down!!!
>>>
>>> JMO
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>
>>>
>>>> All:
>>>>
>>>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on 
>>>> experience. If
>>>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>>>
>>>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>>>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street-  I 
>>>> decided
>>>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the sun in 
>>>> my
>>>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and 
>>>> planned to
>>>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon. 
>>>> Gardners
>>>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open when 
>>>> they
>>>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a 
>>>> neighbor
>>>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found the 
>>>> open
>>>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking everyone I
>>>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her 
>>>> home.
>>>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my 
>>>> dog's
>>>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well. 
>>>> Regardless of
>>>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make sure 
>>>> you're
>>>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them with 
>>>> the
>>>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and 
>>>> told
>>>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint 
>>>> for
>>>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were 
>>>> completely
>>>> safe, and that I was returning to work.  Of coarse, that made me public
>>>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc.  from that school's
>>>> prspective.
>>>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive 
>>>> treatment I
>>>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being 
>>>> taken
>>>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school never 
>>>> gave
>>>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them. 
>>>> Thus,
>>>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained ownership 
>>>> of
>>>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this seems
>>>> rather strange.)  I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers should 
>>>> not be
>>>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who use 
>>>> dog
>>>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal 
>>>> ownership
>>>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to 
>>>> contact
>>>> local animal control.  They will observe and intervene.
>>>> OK- sorry this is so long.  Have a great day everyone, and comment as 
>>>> you
>>>> like.
>>>>
>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf
>>>> of Nimer Jaber
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>
>>>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>>>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>>>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just
>>>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a minority.
>>>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>>>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>>>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with
>>>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>>>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>>>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or
>>>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could
>>>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>>>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>>>
>>>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready 
>>>>> for
>>>> the
>>>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
>>>> control
>>>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer choice
>>>>> overall.
>>>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the others.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might get 
>>>>>> them
>>>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than 
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>> it
>>>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of ownership?
>>>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though I 
>>>>>> see
>>>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself 
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the begeezes 
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than, 
>>>>>> say, an
>>>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know things
>>>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I 
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't   think
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> grads should have dogs  then they will need to do better at selecting 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> training.
>>>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts, 
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore must 
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a 
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our dogs..
>>>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice 
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> training them for us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a 
>>>>>> school
>>>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check  lists stop that?
>>>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not, 
>>>>>> however,
>>>> got
>>>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than 
>>>>>> any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> school's grads.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are
>>>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan W.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Or
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dnlarsen75%40gmail.co
>>>> m
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.c
>>>> om
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%40ve
>>>> rizon.net
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>> Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3038 - Release Date: 
>>>> 07/30/10
>>>> 06:34:00
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nagdu:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizon.net

More information about the NAGDU mailing list