[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
Margo and Arrow
margo.downey at verizon.net
Mon Aug 2 17:15:27 UTC 2010
yes, and I believe that's the same school with the drunken guy and who
blackmails its graduates into compliance. Very sad that staffs think they
must do these things.
Margo andArrow
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 4:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
> Margo,
> I agree that many people do not care if they own their dogs or not. I
> also believe that many of them either believe "my school wouldn't do such
> a thing" or "they must have a reason for this"! According to the police
> report filed in one case in which the school confiscated the harnesses of
> a couple in Florida, the dogs were not being abused; rather, the animal
> services officer - who is a law enforcement officer - stated that the
> owners had plenty of food, there was clean water down, and the dogs nails
> were painted. On the other hand, the trainer who confiscated the
> harnesses, according to the report, was verbally abusive to the handlers.
> He went so far as to go to the police department to tell them the dogs
> were no longer "certified service animals and no longer had legal access
> to public places". The police, fortunately, knew better and told the
> trainer as much!
>
> fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 10:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
>
>> Marion, I couldn't agree more. but, a lot of folks don't care if they own
>> their dogs or not and that's fine. what concerns me is that so many
>> folks don't believe their schools are behaving in a custodial manner.
>>
>> Margo andarrow
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:27 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>>
>>> Margo,
>>> I think the best approach is to help those who are unaware that there
>>> are differences in ownership policy become aware of this fact. Whenever
>>> someone either calls me or asks on this list about recommendations for
>>> schools, I tell them I am not in a position to make any specific
>>> recommendations, but I strongly suggest they choose a school that
>>> transfers ownership upon graduation. I am of the opinion that this
>>> single policy speaks volumes as to the school's true belief in the
>>> inherent capacity of their consumers. After all, we just fought the
>>> State of Missouri for taking a child away from its parents. If a blind
>>> person is capable of raising children, they certainly are capable of
>>> caring for a dog!
>>>
>>> fraternally yours,
>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:59 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Linda, I couldn't agree with you more. I don't know about shutting the
>>>> schools down but perhaps revamping staff and policies.
>>>>
>>>> It makes me wonder if these schools screen their people enough or
>>>> something's wrong. Why can't they adopt Seeing eye's model that has
>>>> worked for so long.
>>>>
>>>> but, if the staff and/or policies can't be revamped, yep, shut 'em
>>>> down. Hope I still have friends after this post. (smile).
>>>>
>>>> These schools train wonderful dogs but still don't trust their
>>>> graduates.
>>>>
>>>> margo and Arrow
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:17 PM
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>> I changed the subject line of this.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having
>>>>> real ownership like Seeing eye has. That school that abuses blind
>>>>> people and blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is
>>>>> paternalism at its worse! It should be closed down or become the next
>>>>> target of NFB as the NAC places were during the seventies and
>>>>> eighties. Maybe we're becoming too nice and have forgotten about our
>>>>> old tactics that have WORKED.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, protecting the dogs. Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that
>>>>> has worked for them for the past 81 years. You screen your
>>>>> applicants. You watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems
>>>>> during class. After the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get
>>>>> reported to Animal Control just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats.
>>>>> This system works and the number of blind people who abuse their dogs
>>>>> is very small. What blind person would abuse the thing that gives us
>>>>> freedom to move around without having to use a white cane? Only
>>>>> someone who has other problems and many schools are able to find this
>>>>> out before the person even goes to the school.
>>>>>
>>>>> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!! Shut 'em
>>>>> down!!!
>>>>>
>>>>> JMO
>>>>>
>>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> All:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on
>>>>>> experience. If
>>>>>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>>>>>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street- I
>>>>>> decided
>>>>>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the sun
>>>>>> in my
>>>>>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and
>>>>>> planned to
>>>>>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon.
>>>>>> Gardners
>>>>>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open
>>>>>> when they
>>>>>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a
>>>>>> neighbor
>>>>>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found the
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking everyone
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her
>>>>>> home.
>>>>>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my
>>>>>> dog's
>>>>>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well.
>>>>>> Regardless of
>>>>>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make sure
>>>>>> you're
>>>>>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them
>>>>>> with the
>>>>>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and told
>>>>>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were
>>>>>> completely
>>>>>> safe, and that I was returning to work. Of coarse, that made me
>>>>>> public
>>>>>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc. from that school's
>>>>>> prspective.
>>>>>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive
>>>>>> treatment I
>>>>>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being
>>>>>> taken
>>>>>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school
>>>>>> never gave
>>>>>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them.
>>>>>> Thus,
>>>>>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained ownership
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this
>>>>>> seems
>>>>>> rather strange.) I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers should
>>>>>> not be
>>>>>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who use
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal
>>>>>> ownership
>>>>>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to
>>>>>> contact
>>>>>> local animal control. They will observe and intervene.
>>>>>> OK- sorry this is so long. Have a great day everyone, and comment as
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> like.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> of Nimer Jaber
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>>>>>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>>>>>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just
>>>>>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a
>>>>>> minority.
>>>>>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>>>>>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>>>>>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with
>>>>>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>>>>>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>>>>>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or
>>>>>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could
>>>>>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>>>>>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>>>>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>>>>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> overall.
>>>>>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the
>>>>>>> others.
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might
>>>>>>>> get them
>>>>>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>>>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than
>>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of
>>>>>>>> ownership?
>>>>>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though
>>>>>>>> I see
>>>>>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>>>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the
>>>>>>>> begeezes out
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than,
>>>>>>>> say, an
>>>>>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know
>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>>> grads should have dogs then they will need to do better at
>>>>>>>> selecting or
>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>>>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts,
>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>>>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore
>>>>>>>> must be
>>>>>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our
>>>>>>>> dogs..
>>>>>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice
>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> training them for us.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a
>>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check lists stop that?
>>>>>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>>>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not,
>>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>> got
>>>>>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> school's grads.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are
>>>>>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan W.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Or
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dnlarsen75%40gmail.co
>>>>>> m
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.c
>>>>>> om
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cathrynisfinally%40ve
>>>>>> rizon.net
>>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>> Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3038 - Release Date:
>>>>>> 07/30/10
>>>>>> 06:34:00
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizon.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizon.net
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list