[nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

Tue Aug 3 18:08:34 UTC 2010

Don't worry, Tami - you're a NORMAL person!!!

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamara Smith-Kinney" <tamara.8024 at comcast.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership

> Margo,
>
> Yeah, there's still a lot of general acceptance of custodialism and
> paternalism among many blind people I meet.  When I try, in my own way, to
> better understand their attitudes and perceptions by getting them to talk
> about it, the general belief is that you need to put up with that in order
> to get the resources you need and that you should just accept it or else
> it's your fault they won't "give" you the resources.
>
> I suppose it might come down to whether one considers oneself a beggar,
> receiving charity from others, or a blind consumer accessing needed
> resources thave have already been provided for you to draw upon so that 
> you
> can be a productive member of society...
>
> I do my best to understand those who believe that the condescension and 
> all
> -- even abuse -- is the price they need to pay for guide dogs or adaptive
> tech or a bit of skills training or whatever.  I don't get it, not really,
> but that's me.
>
> I have noticed, however, that if I won't accept the crap, then I am a 
> screw
> up and don't deserve resources!  Even though, around here in the matter of
> VR, they will all calmly admit that there's no guarantee you will have 
> tools
> to work bestowed upon you even if you're nice and cooperative.  But that's
> okay!
>
> The same sort of thinking may be in play when it comes to guide dog 
> programs
> whose treatment of their blind consumers is beyond the pale...  I really
> don't know.  I do know for myself that if it turns out I decide to go
> through a program when Mitzi is ready to retire, I will be looking for 
> those
> custodial and paternalistic attitudes over anything else to rule out 
> schools
> to consider!
>
> Not only do I not appreciate those attitudes and resent being treated that
> way, but I do not respond in a way that inspires those types to remain
> non-hostile.  That may be putting it strongly, but my experience with our
> state agency has given me strong motivation to avoid those types if at all
> possible.  /smile/
>
> I'd better add, fore the sake of fairness, that I also believe there are
> gray areas in the custodialisim/patronization scale.  What seems offensive
> to me may seem caring and understanding to another...  I just don't know.
> It's the casual acceptance of behavior that is so clearly over the line 
> that
> makes my hair stand on end.
>
> Tami Smith-Kinney
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Margo and Arrow
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 7:34 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
> Marion, I couldn't agree more. but, a lot of folks don't care if they own
> their dogs or not and that's fine.  what concerns me is that so many folks
> don't believe their schools are behaving in a custodial manner.
>
> Margo andarrow
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 9:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>
>
>> Margo,
>>    I think the best approach is to help those who are unaware that there
>> are differences in ownership policy become aware of this fact. Whenever
>> someone either calls me or asks on this list about recommendations for
>> schools, I tell them I am not in a position to make any specific
>> recommendations, but I strongly suggest they choose a school that
>> transfers ownership upon graduation. I am of the opinion that this single
>> policy speaks volumes as to the school's true belief in the inherent
>> capacity of their consumers. After all, we just fought the State of
>> Missouri for taking a child away from its parents. If a blind person is
>> capable of raising children, they certainly are capable of caring for a
>> dog!
>>
>> fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Margo and Arrow" <margo.downey at verizon.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:59 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>
>>
>>> Linda, I couldn't agree with you more.  I don't know about shutting the
>>> schools down but perhaps revamping staff and policies.
>>>
>>> It makes me wonder if these schools screen their people enough or
>>> something's wrong.  Why can't they adopt Seeing eye's model that has
>>> worked for so long.
>>>
>>> but, if the staff and/or policies can't be revamped, yep, shut 'em down.
>>> Hope I still have friends after this post.  (smile).
>>>
>>> These schools train wonderful dogs but still don't trust their 
>>> graduates.
>>>
>>> margo and Arrow
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2010 12:17 PM
>>> Subject: [nagdu] people abusing dogs and ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I changed the subject line of this.
>>>>
>>>> This is why I will NEVER go to a school with a contract or not having
>>>> real ownership like Seeing eye has.  That school that abuses blind
>>>> people and blackmails their graduates with taking away their dogs is
>>>> paternalism at its worse!  It should be closed down or become the next
>>>> target of NFB as the NAC places were during the seventies and eighties.
>>>> Maybe we're becoming too nice and have forgotten about our old tactics
>>>> that have WORKED.
>>>>
>>>> Now, protecting the dogs.  Any school can use Seeing Eye's model that
>>>> has worked for them for the past 81 years.  You screen your applicants.
>>>> You watch them carefully for signs of potential prioblems during class.
>>>> After the graduate goes home, any abuse problems get reported to Animal
>>>> Control just like anyone else's pet dogs or cats. This system works and
>>>> the number of blind people who abuse their dogs is very small.  What
>>>> blind person would abuse the thing that gives us freedom to move around
>>>> without having to use a white cane?  Only someone who has other 
>>>> problems
>
>>>> and many schools are able to find this out before the person even goes
>>>> to the school.
>>>>
>>>> End the abuse of blind people from paternalistic schools!!  Shut 'em
>>>> down!!!
>>>>
>>>> JMO
>>>>
>>>> Lyn and Landon
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Cathryn Bonnette" <cathrynisfinally at verizon.net>
>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 5:14 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> All:
>>>>>
>>>>> After reading this, I register my vote for ownership based on
>>>>> experience. If
>>>>> you have a moment to read, here's my story:
>>>>>
>>>>> While renting a house on a cul-de-sac at the end of another
>>>>> cul-de-sac,-meaning there were rarely any cars on either street-  I
>>>>> decided
>>>>> to leave my guide at home one morning since she was enjoying the sun 
>>>>> in
>
>>>>> my
>>>>> fenced back garden. I lived walking distance from my office, and
>>>>> planned to
>>>>> come hone for lunch and take her back to the office that afternoon.
>>>>> Gardners
>>>>> came that morning, and despite my instructions left the gate open when
>>>>> they
>>>>> finished their work. My guide took a stroll down the street and a
>>>>> neighbor
>>>>> put her in his garage with his lab. I came home for lunch, found the
>>>>> open
>>>>> gate and went down the street calling her loudly and asking everyone I
>>>>> encountered until I found her, thanked my neighbor and brought her
>>>>> home.
>>>>> Meanwhile this Good Samaritan had called the school due to tags on my
>>>>> dog's
>>>>> collar. So, I called the school to let them know all was well.
>>>>> Regardless of
>>>>> my assurances, they insisted on showing up at my home, to "make sure
>>>>> you're
>>>>> all right." As they continued to insist, I finally confronted them 
>>>>> with
>
>>>>> the
>>>>> abuse I had witnessed and experienced by one of their staff, and
>>>>> told
>>>>> them that if they came to my home uninvited, I would file a complaint
>>>>> for
>>>>> trespass. I concluded by repeating that both my dog and I were
>>>>> completely
>>>>> safe, and that I was returning to work.  Of coarse, that made me 
>>>>> public
>>>>> enemy #1 and the Wicked Witch of the West etc.  from that school's
>>>>> prspective.
>>>>> You may think this sounds harsh, but I knew the month of abusive
>>>>> treatment I
>>>>> had survived at the school, and of horror stories about dogs being
>>>>> taken
>>>>> back from blind people without notice or basis since this school never
>>>>> gave
>>>>> legal ownership to blind persons who received dog guides from them.
>>>>> Thus,
>>>>> abusing blind people was tolerated, but the school retained ownership
>>>>> of
>>>>> their dogs to prevent dog abuse. (Perhaps it is just me, but this 
>>>>> seems
>>>>> rather strange.)  I am in absolute agreement that dog abusers should
>>>>> not be
>>>>> able to keep dogs. I am equally convinced that blind persons who use
>>>>> dog
>>>>> guides must not be treated like children as schools retain legal
>>>>> ownership
>>>>> of dog guides. My suggestion as a way to deal with dog abusers is to
>>>>> contact
>>>>> local animal control.  They will observe and intervene.
>>>>> OK- sorry this is so long.  Have a great day everyone, and comment as
>>>>> you
>>>>> like.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cathryn (& Abby)
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> of Nimer Jaber
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>
>>>>> I look at it is if we had to fill out reports and it minimized the
>>>>> dogs that ended up getting abused, mistreated or whatever it would
>>>>> also reflect better on us as dog guide users. We are a minority just
>>>>> being blind. Being blind dog guide owners makes us more of a minority.
>>>>> So, if someone saw a blind guy abusing his dog or saw a dog that
>>>>> wasn't being taken care of, what kind of response do you think that
>>>>> person's going to give to the next person who he/she runs across with
>>>>> a guide? It's a reputation thing almost as much as it is to protect
>>>>> the animals. If we want to keep our rights as dog guide owners, we
>>>>> have to show that we can take care of them and not abuse them. One or
>>>>> two people abusing their dogs in front of the right individual could
>>>>> spell trouble for dog access laws. You guys can disagree as much as
>>>>> you wish, any comments are welcome.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/07/2010, Danielle Nicole Larsen <dnlarsen75 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> People who shouldn't have dogs are people I believe whoa ren't ready
>>>>>> for
>>>>> the
>>>>>> commitment. People who have drug problems. People who are unable to
>>>>> control
>>>>>> their temper. Anyone who'd put a dog in danger.
>>>>>> Big brother watching is creepy. Ownership is valuable.
>>>>>> But to prevent dogs from being in danger I think it's teh safer 
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> overall.
>>>>>> It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make to protect the others.
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog 
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 4:27 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How are you deciding that "people who shouldn't have dogs" might get
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> and what constitutes your criteria for who should have a dog?
>>>>>>> So, if people who shouldn't have dogs, in quotes, get them, than
>>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> the poor judgment of the school rather than a question of ownership?
>>>>>>> I do believe in total unfettered and unrestricted ownership, though 
>>>>>>> I
>
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>> that I'm in a minority--smile.
>>>>>>> Most of us apparently want big brother watching us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A yearly vet report won't stop, for example, the people I myself
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> shouldn't have dogs, the ones who in my judgment correct the 
>>>>>>> begeezes
>
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> their dogs.
>>>>>>> Or those who are yelling at their dogs, that bugged me more than,
>>>>>>> say, an
>>>>>>> uncontrolled dog before I had a dog. Now I have a dog and know 
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>> happen, but I have a mental check list of people I have met who I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> would do the dog and themselves a favor by not having one--smile.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember, that's my judgment, if a training facility doesn't   think
>>>>>>> certain
>>>>>>> grads should have dogs  then they will need to do better at 
>>>>>>> selecting
>
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>> A blind person is still a person.
>>>>>>> I love dogs more than I can say, actually, but facts are facts,
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> to be given consideration, blind people too--smile.
>>>>>>> We're not just people who have been granted a dog and therefore must
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> watched because the dog is more important than we are and being a
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> person with a guide dog, we might and probably will abuse our dogs..
>>>>>>> If the schools are so sure we will abuse our dogs, then think twice
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> training them for us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I personally despise slime balls who abuse their dogs, but will a
>>>>>>> school
>>>>>>> owning our dogs and subjecting us to yearly check  lists stop that?
>>>>>>> Evidence suggests that it won't.
>>>>>>> The Seeing Eye grants ownership, as I understand, I have not,
>>>>>>> however,
>>>>> got
>>>>>>> the impression that more Seeing Eye grads mistreat their dogs than
>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> school's grads.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remember not attacking you, just expressing my opinions as you are
>>>>>>> expressing yours.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cordially,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan W.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dnlarsen75%40gmail.co
>>>>> m
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>>>
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>>>>> om
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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