[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: being reported to your school
Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
REBECCA.PICKRELL at tasc.com
Wed Aug 4 13:25:33 UTC 2010
This is a great post Tami.
Aside from the fact that kids and guide dogs are different on a
fundamental level, I have problems with the anology of "if it wouldn't
be good for a kid, it wouldn't be good for a guide dog" because it can
transolate to "That blind guy or gal shouldn't..."
With a kid, you're teaching behavior but you're also teaching morals.
You aren't teaching morals with a guide dog.
Also, you can legally leave a guide dog alone. I did it more then I
otherwise would have with my last dog especially near the end of the
relationship. You can't ever leave a young child alone even if you know
they will sleep the whole time or be fine playing with blocks or
whatever. If your dog is tired or not feeling well, you can say "I
really need to get out for some air or get a pack of cigs" and take your
cane and just go. With a kid, you cannot do this unless you've got an
adult to be at your house *before* you leave. If you call Jim to watch
your kid and Jim says "I'll be over, and then doesn't show up for
several hours, well, you either take the kid with you, or you and the
kid stay home.
So, I just have real problems with the anology and taking it too far.
I don't know about the intellectual comparison, you may be right. I do
like your rocket science for doggies though
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 6:55 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: being reported to your school
Rebecca,
Love the dad story. And in the ways you describe, a dog is no way like
a
child... I see where you're coming from in that and in objecting to the
comparison.
Some of my friends, exasperatedly watching my try to pull everything for
myself and the dog together while getting us both ready to go out, would
tease me by saying, "I can sure tell you've never been a mom!" /lol/
Of
course, now it's DD who's usually observing the process of me getting
myself
and my dog ready to go flying out the door... I'm much better at it
now,
but you know guys! All he has to do is put his keys and his cell phone
in
his pockets and he's good to go. Me, I need my purse, then my cell
phone,
then doggy bags and a clicker and treats, and... He entertains himself
by
taking pot shots about women while I scurry arounnd trying to gather up
everything with one dog (mine) glued to my leg and the other dog (his)
dancing underfoot.
Okay, well, our current dance doesn't involve the concept of children at
all, which is probably a good thing, because if someone tried throwing a
kid
into the mix -- even by mentioning one in jest -- I would probably have
a
melt down. /grin/
I can see where the child metaphor comes in for guide dogs, though,
because
we do have to take extra stuff for them that we wouldn't for pets and
because of the high standards of cleanliness and behavior we have for
them
and the interdependence we have with them... So they're not like pets,
more
like, you know, kids. Toddlers, anyway. It's an imperfect metaphor,
but in
part it does capture some facets of how having a guide dog differs from
having a pet. In our culture, especially, because so many people have
started having pets instead of kids and who view their dogs more as
children
than as pets in many ways. So the expression "dog like kid" is floating
around out there and jumps readily to mind. /smile/ Much to the chagrin
of
real moms with real kids, who think the rest of us are just nuts. /lol/
I keep hearing that "They" had discovered that a dog's intelligence is
like
a 2-year-old human's... Which then gets shortened to having a dog is
like
having a 2-year-old. I always think of you when I hear that because I
can
somehow imagine what you would say if you were standing there... /lol/
My
bias, though, as much as my reason, tells me that since a guide dog must
be
pretty high-end on the doggy intelligence scale, and since they are
trained
to interact intelligently with the human world for a job that involves
some
relatively complex decision-making (rocket science for dogs!), the
intelligence of the average guide dog probably adds up to a reasoning
ability closer to that of a 3 or 4 year old. That's just a WAG on my
part,
but I've observed that my poodle can use some pretty sophisticated
problem
solving and abstract reasoning to get herself into really big trouble
using
the skills I've taught her... /lol/ I use the trouble example because
when
I discover it, I'm not so likely to be overwhelmed with gushy adoration
and
lose all reason as I am when she does that sort of thing in the course
of
her work or in appropriate play. /smile/
So why do I suddenly have the image in my head of Mitzi and me swimming
with
the dolphins? /grin/ I think I'll leave that one to you and your real
kid!
Tami Smith-Kinney
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:13 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: being reported to your school
Because a child and a guide dog are not the same. A guide dog is a
mobility tool, a child is not.
I used to frequent a bar where we'd drink and sing bawdy songs, my
favorite being one about Alice and a guy who was very in love with her.
When it came time for the chorus, we'd all shout "Alice, who the f*** is
Alice!"
It was great fun. There is no way I'd expose my daughter to that not
given her current age. My guide dog at the time had no issues with it.
Likewise, I will expose my kid to things I wouldn't ever do with a guide
dog. My daughter really wants to "take Mommy and we go in the water and
swim with dolphins". I'm hoping we can do that some day, and have told
her that we need to learn to swim first. I am hoping we can swim with
dolphins at some point. There is no way I'd do this with aguide dogIn
other words, a child and a dog are very different. And, unlike a dog, a
child will grow up so you can expose them to different things over time.
One of the people that used to join me at the previously mentioned bar
was... my dad. The only ill effects Dad and I experienced is that
neither of us can hear the name Alice withoutthinking "Alice, who the
f*** is Alice".
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Jordan Frances Ortiz
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 1:57 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: being reported to your school
We've talked about it many times and in many different ways. He's still
intent on thinking that his way is best, and I've kind of given up on
trying to helop him. He knows what i htink and he and I are fine with
that. I know that we can be reported for people seeing things wrong or
not understanding but when someone has been reported more than 30 times
in a 2 year period I feel like something isn't right. I was using this
story as an example of mistreatment of a dog, and if he were just a
owner witha pet I'd feel the same way. I guess I see my guide dog as a
child, and if I wouldn't expose my child to certain thingns why expose
my guide dog?
Jordan
Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
> Wow, and you are going to acuse this very close friend of abuse ona
> public list? I sure wouldn't want o be him right now. Actually, if I
> were him I'd be talking to alawyer right about now to see what could
be
> done about filing a slander suit against you. I'd also be talking to
the
> school to let them know you were intent on making myl ife a living
hell.
> Ever consider talking to this very close friend? Or rephrasing your
> concerns more honestly, i.e. "I have a friend, he does X andY with his
> dog, what do you all think?" As Rox said, you can't unring the abuse
> bell.
> And, would this guy's behavior toward his dog bother you if he was
> sighted and the dog was a pet? If not, then he may be a jerk, but
isn't
> abusive.
> I still am struggling as to your motive and why you'd treat a very
close
> friend or anybody for that matter in the way you're doing.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
> Behalf Of Jordan Frances Ortiz
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 12:33 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: being reported to your school
>
> Oh sorry this guy has been a close friend of mine for 8 years. I like
> everything about him except how he treats his dog sometimes.
>
>
> Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>
>> No, with what you've written,I can't tel if you don't like the guy so
>> are primmed to see abuse everywhere, if you are all gooey about your
>> puppy so are also primmed to see abuse, if you have some skewed
notion
>> of "docile little blind person, I want to own one" or if the guy is
>> truly being abusive.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf Of Jordan Frances Ortiz
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:58 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: being reported to your school
>>
>> isn't that what abuse is... if we liked abuse it wouldn't be abuse
>>
> would
>
>> it?
>>
>>
>>
>> Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Totally agree.
>>> My problem with Jordan's logic is that she is equating abuse to
stuff
>>> she doesn't like. When I read the post about the guy puking on his
>>>
> dog
>
>>>
>>>
>> I
>>
>>
>>> thought "Did this guy not call her "the morning after" and she's now
>>> looking for revenge"?
>>> Then my thought is "How dare the blind guy go out and drink, oh
look,
>>>
>>>
>> he
>>
>>
>>> took his dog with him when he did it, I'll say he's abusing it".
>>> That whole attitude strikes me as paternalistic.
>>> Most people will do dumb things with their dogs not because we have
>>> dogs, but because we're human. WE'll do the same with our spouses,
>>>
> our
>
>>> friends, our kids, our stuff, you name it.
>>> Jordan, a good litness test is "If this guy was sighted and took his
>>>
>>>
>> pet
>>
>>
>>> dog to an outdoor dog-friendly bar or to just a dog-friendly bar,
and
>>> puked on his dog, would you care?"
>>> You are using "That poor puppy" as an excuse to hit the abuse button
>>>
>>>
>> for
>>
>>
>>> behavior you don't like.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of The Pawpower Pack
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 11:36 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] being reported to your school
>>>
>>> I would agree that throwing up on one's dog is hardly ideal.
>>>
> However,
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> sometimes stuff happens. I take my dog to bars when I go. My dog
is
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> there if I drink alcohol. Granted, I'm at the point in my life,
>>>
> where
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> time and experience has taught me that drinking until one throws up
>>>
> is
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> hardly a good idea, for a number of reasons. However I don't think
>>> taking my dog to the bar and drinking is a crime. If someone saw my
>>>
>
>
>>> dog at a bar and saw me drinking and having a good time with friends
>>>
>
>
>>> and they accused me of abuse, I'd be pretty upset.
>>> People are different, they have different lifestyles. Some dogs
>>>
> don't
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> like bars and the noise does bother them. If someone had a dog like
>>>
>
>
>>> that, I would hope they'd use their judgement and not take the dog.
>>>
>
>
>>> However if the dog is like mine and doesn't really care, then who's
>>> business is it of anyone's to say I should, or should not have my
dog
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> at a bar?
>>> Also if someone threw up on their dog because they were ill, is that
>>>
>
>
>>> still abuse, or is it the drinking plus the vomiting that is the
>>>
>>>
>> issue?
>>
>>
>>> I drink, I go to bars. I live in New Orleans and my dog goes on
>>> Bourbon street with me and I have a hard time thinking this is
>>>
>>>
>> abusive.
>>
>>
>>> My dog gets fed, loved, medical care. She works has toys, other dog
>>>
>
>
>>> friends and I spend lots of time with her. Does the fact that
>>>
> someone
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> drinks alcohol with their dog at a bar then negate all of the other
>>> things?
>>> I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm honestly curious.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rox and the Herbal HenchHounds
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>> "It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to
>>>
> point
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a
half-
>>>
>
>
>>> wit, and the emperor remains an emperor."-- Neil Gaiman
>>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com/retreat.html
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>>
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