[nagdu] anticipating

Fri Aug 13 22:00:07 UTC 2010

Julie, 

I encourage this in my dogs after training. I'm honestly trying to recall
how it was handled in my various classes at GDF. We use suggestive turns to
ask the dog to make a turn when it comes up, but that's not what you're
talking about. I know those automatic turns or slight indications and for
the most part, I'll allow the dog to do them for a couple reasons. 

During training I generally don't and that has gotten me into some amazingly
stupid situations. 

I'll talk first about training. These are strictly my personal experiences
and I'd love to hear from other GDF grads to see if you did the same things.
:> 

We have one walk called the horseshoe that is a large kalddesac shaped like,
gee, a horseshoe, with a sidewalk along a busy street connecting the two
ends. The street side is fairly small, not even half a regular block, and it
has several driveways along it. 

I'll be the first to tell you that I have a lot of trouble learning how each
dog approaches curbs. It takes me a while to get how they choose to stop.
Some dogs come screeching up and throw on the breaks. Funny, I've only had 2
of my 5 GDf dogs who did that. The other 3 either glided up and stopped or
stopped a foot or so back and crept up. Both of these methods feel to me
like stopping in the wrong place. So what do I usually do, to the
consternation of my instructor? Correct the dog and get it moving again of
course, which results in me either tripping off a noticeable curb or flying
across a quiet side street without even catching it. DUH. 

On the horseshoe walk, the dogs will often indicate the turn at the top of
the thing as it's where they always turn and going one direction, they can
usually see the bus from the top of the turn. Do I ever listen to this
subtle, sometimes very subtle, hint? No. Every single class finds me
overriding my dog and crossing the side street to continue blithely down the
busy street until either I realize we've gone too far or someone finally
gets my attention by shouting my name loudly so everyone can hear that I'm a
complete idiot. <giant grin> 

I swear before each class that I will try not to do this and the past 2
times I've tried such a promise to myself and my dogs, I've ended up
trudging back in embarrassed laughter. 

When I was doing a test walk with Swap to see how his gait was in different
venues, we went to the mall. We walked down the concourse and went into a
store where I subjected my poor instructor to some chick shopping. We left
said store and went to see how he handled finding elevators for me. He was
awesome, gliding along with an excellent gait, pace and pull. 

We turned around and retraced our way back down the mall. As we passed the
store, Swap gave the slightest head and body turn and paused mid-step as if
to ask if I wanted to go back in there. The instructor and I both praised
lavishly and went crazy about this little notification. It was the coolest
thing. 

Now Swap will indeed give slight indication if he thinks it's a place we
might want. I allow him to find turns in my neighborhood because there are
no sidewalks and no long stretches of straight road so I need his
indications of turns when he knows the way. 

We also use turning when working country roads, or those without sidewalks,
to "indent" an intersection so you know when you are crossing another road.
The way this works is as follows. 

Say you are walking down a straight road, on the left side as learned. You
come to an intersecting road without a sidewalk, even with one. The dog will
turn to the left and go maybe 3 to 5 feet down that road then either stop or
veer so that you are back on the straight course. You reach an up curb on
the other side and the dog continues, usually without stopping, around that
curb and back along the left edge of the road you were walking on. It
happens much more smoothly in real life than what I've described. 

So yes, I use that anticipation much of the time with gentle reminders when
I don't want it. 

Jenine Stanley
jeninems at wowway.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie J
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 5:23 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] anticipating

Sherrill,

That's interesting.  I honestly thought most of the programs teach the dogs 
to always go all the way to the curb and wait for direction from the 
handler.   I was under the impression that auto-turning was a no no.

I can totally understand putting too much faith in the dog's choices. LOL 
I'd be visiting a lot of yards with dogs, fire hydrants and the library.  No

clue what's fascinating about the library.

People here think all sorts of strange things about how guide dogs work, 
probably no different than the weird things people think in other places. 
Monty is amazing because he knows when the traffic light turns green.  He 
was hilarious because he turned to show me a doorway when I told him 
forward, even though forward was a dead end and the door was the obvious 
choice.  Oh and the one who thought he was horrible for taking me to the out

door instead of the in one, like he can read or something?  I'm sure that 
there are a fair number of people that are in awe of the dog that takes me 
to work every morning. LOL

It's interesting to learn how different people work in different ways.
Julie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sherrill O'Brien" <sherrill.obrien at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] anticipating

> Julie,
>
> I was at TSE less than a year ago, and this really wasn't mentioned.
> Perhaps if a particular student is not very well oriented, and depends too
> heavily on the dog rather than taking their own initiative, something will
> be said to the student about not letting the dog take charge of the team.
>
> Just saw Meghan's post, and I echo what she says.  College campuses are
> certainly places where our guides really think they know best (lol.)  I
> remember, though it was long ago, having to work with my dog to get her to
> go the opposite way from my biology class.  It always gave my friends a 
> good
> laugh, though, as they said they'd love to borrow my dog so they wouldn't
> have to think about anything while walking to class.  Of course there's 
> the
> other amusing habit of our dogs trying their best to get us to go into
> favorite restaurants or other haunts.  At the University of Illinois, 
> there
> was an Irish bar my friends and I often frequented, and my dog loved it,
> since she knew she'd be seeing lots of her people friends.  Students were
> always chuckling when I would be passing this bar at, say, 8 in the 
> morning
> on my way to class, with  my dog trying her best to convince me to go in
> (smile.)  But through the years, I've always appreciated my dogs' pausing 
> or
> turning at familiar places.  I just cheerfully say "Good girl, but not
> today" and go on my way.  I can understand the schools wanting their
> students to stay away from the "take me to the store" mentality with their
> dogs.  I'm afraid I've known people who pretty much let their dogs take
> over, and then get upset and angry with the dog when they get lost.    I
> know the public perception is almost always that the dogs take us where we
> want to go, so it's unfortunate when handlers themselves fall into this 
> same
> line of thinking.
>
> Anyway, I'd say you and Monty have it worked out just about right.
>
> Sherrill
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]On
> Behalf Of Julie J
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 3:14 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: [nagdu] anticipating
>
>
> Heya all,
>
> I will have had Monty two years tomorrow. We have worked together as a 
> team
> for about 10 months of that.  I was reflecting back on all the progress we
> have made and how smoothly we are working together, at least most days.
> *smile*
>
> Anyway this morning on the way to work I was pondering the issue of guides
> that anticipate turns.  My understanding is that most of the programs
> discourage this.  I'm talking about a dog who makes a turn on a regular
> route without direct direction from the handler to do so.
>
> Monty does this all the time.  I have actually cultivated the skill 
> because
> I appreciate it.  Of course if I feel him begin a turn and I want to go
> another way I simply stop, praise him and give the new instructions.  Also
> if we pass a place where we have turned in the past, but it's not a really
> regular place, he'll sort of do a half turn with a pause and look back to
> see if that's what I want.  I absolutely love this and can't imagine 
> working
> it differently.
>
> My route to work is basically straight west with only a deviation of one
> block north.  I vary the route as much as is possible.  It really makes no
> difference where I choose to turn north, he always figures out where to go
> at the next corner.
>
> I'd love to hear how all of you balance the initiative of the dog,
> anticipating turns, indicating possible turns and the like.
>
> Julie
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