[nagdu] Hawaii

Fri Dec 10 11:59:55 UTC 2010

Cindy,
    I would like to add that some of these things are also a matter of 
perspective. Just as some may *think* that we are abusing our dogs when we 
give a correction, some may also *think* that a dog's vocalizations are 
signs of aggression. My Shepherd is a very vocal dog and has been known to 
groan. If someone were to mistake his groans as a growl, they may think he 
is acting agressively.
    As for those absolutistic thinkers who believe they have all the 
answers, perhaps they should get their law degree and go to work for the DOJ 
to solve all these problems!

Fraternally yours,
Marion


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii


> Jordan, you have a lot of shoulds and musts and oughts and needs to be, 
> but
> you need to talk about unpacking those. You seem to want "them" whoever
> "they" are, to tak care of these things. What are "they" "we" whoever
> supposed to do about all of these pronouncements of yours. And, as for
> you,Albert, handleds don't always "allow" the dogs to growl. Some of them 
> do
> it no matter what you do. You try to work it out; if you can't, then you
> change out dogs, but people, don't put it all on us like that.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>
> Not sure how it will work, but I have a very small and somewhat usable
> vision if all conditions are right.  I do things with my dog that I 
> couldn't
> do without vision and therefore trained my dog to do somethings that she
> otherwise wouldn't do.  All that can be worked on, but something really
> needs to be done about people being fraudulent.
> Jordan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Julie J
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 12:04 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
> Jordan,
>
> Okay, how is this going to work exactly?
>
> I owner train my guides. Not self train.  the dog doesn't train itself. 
> I'm
>
> interested to know how certification could work.
>
> How I work my dogs is probably different from the way the dogs from a
> program work.  What about someone who has some useable vision and uses 
> their
>
> dog as a low vision aid?  Who is going to certify me and/or my dog?  How 
> is
> that going to not violate my civil rights?  Who is going to pay for this
> certification?  How does this certification prove that in two months or
> under different circumstances my dog is going to behave?  What criteria 
> are
> going to be used in this certification?  Where is this harness going to 
> come
>
> from?  Who is going to pay for it?  What if it doesn't fit my needs?
>
> I'm all for wedding out the fraudulent service dog handlers and/or ill
> behaved service dogs, but I cannot figure out how this could work while
> respecting everyone's civil rights.
>
> Julie
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>
>
>> This is where the ADA needs to be changed.  All someone can ask is is 
>> that
>
>> a
>> service animal.  Well, there really should be a requirement that even 
>> self
>> trained service animals are licensed with an official i.d. card, such as
>> something that states that it is a service animal. And two, if it is a
>> self
>> trained animal, you should need to have the dog pass an examination,
>> working
>> wise, and then issued a harness that says something like certified 
>> service
>> animal.  And also, the ADA should be changed to allow someone to ask for
>> documentation.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Jenine Stanley
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:08 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Thanks much Julie.
>>
>> I think we would all like to simply travel to anywhere in the world
>> without
>> restrictions but reality doesn't always permit that.
>>
>> The reason there are in fact such requirements as submission of titer
>> tests
>> and a health certificate is that the vaccine has not been 100% proven to
>> prevent Rabies. In the opinion of the Hawaiian government, this is not
>> sufficient to insure the safety of the state. Although federal law
>> regarding
>> access rights and other civil rights does trump state law in most cases,
>> when it comes to public health, things get messy.
>>
>> The other issue rearing its ugly head is fraud. We all know Julie and her
>> dog and that she is a competent owner-trainer. What about the guy who 
>> buys
>
>> a
>> harness on line, and there are lots of places one can do just that, or a
>> service dog vest or patches, and calls his well behaved family pet his
>> service dog, just so it can go to Hawaii with him on vacation. During 
>> that
>> vacation, the dog is allowed to run on the beach and maybe even around 
>> the
>> time share property freely as a pet, because after all, what do pets do?
>>
>> This scenario did actually play out. I got a phone call at 11:00pm one
>> night
>> from someone in the Hawaii Quarantine office. Someone had come through 
>> the
>> airport with a dog claiming it was a guide dog, but the airline knew
>> nothing
>> about it, allowed the person on the plane, big no-no to start, and then
>> didn't notify the quarantine office about the person's arrival. The dog
>> was
>> not a guide and was never tracked down. The airline admitted they screwed
>> up
>> in not asking any questions, but did assure the quarantine office that 
>> the
>> person wasn't blind. How they knew this is a mystery to me, but let's 
>> just
>> say the Hawaiian government was not happy.
>>
>> The reason I got this call was that they were trying to figure out if the
>> guide dog schools or GDUI kept a registry of people and could they check
>> names against it. I said that each school had a list of its active
>> graduates, but they'd have to call each one to find this out. Let's just
>> say
>> that time was of the essence and they were not in the mood to deal with
>> this. It happened shortly after the settlement went into place so I
>> suspect
>> someone read all the PR articles and thought, ehy, let me try this.
>>
>> Though I'd love to have a way for people to get into Hawaii with the 
>> least
>> amount of paperwork, some is going to be necessary. I think local
>> licensing
>> as an assistance dog will work in terms of proof of identity but I'll 
>> need
>> to check that one out. Local licensing is about the only means someone 
>> who
>> owner trains has of proof of identity anyway if he or she wants to travel
>> to
>> another country that has such a quarantine or other ID requirements.
>>
>> I suspect that as budgets tighten around the country, the less paperwork
>> required and the less staff time required to achieve anything will win
>> out.
>> So, you never know what or how the requirements will be changed.
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie J
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 10:13 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>> Jordan and Dan,
>>
>> I have pretty well stayed out of the Hawaii debate this time around.
>> We've
>> talked about it in the past and I've been free with my opinion.  So I
>> guess
>> I'll throw caution to the wind and share my thoughts. *smile*
>>
>> I agree with the two of you.  It isn't fair that people with guide dogs
>> have
>>
>> to go through so many extra steps to travel to Hawaii.  furthermore as an
>> owner trainer, I am unsure that it is even possible for me to travel to
>> Hawaii.  I am very much in favor of improving ease of travel to Hawaii.
>>
>> but I'm also torn because Hawaii is rabies free.  I can understand how
>> devastating it would be to introduce rabies to the islands.  However I
>> would
>>
>> think that proof of the vaccine or proof of immunity through a titer test
>> would be sufficient.  not sure how to accomplish that without some sort 
>> of
>> extra paperwork requirement.
>>
>> I would also like to acknowledge the great work Of Jenine Stanly and GDUI
>> for working diligently to improve the situation.  I don't think it's fair
>> to
>>
>> expect massive social change overnight, but Jenine made an incredible 
>> leap
>> forward from where things were previously in Hawaii.  I totally 
>> completely
>> agree with her when she talked about getting as much as they could in the
>> settlement and working on the rest later.   "It is better to do something
>> imperfectly than nothing perfectly." that's a quote I read yesterday,
>> sorry
>> I can't remember whose quote it is.
>>
>> Julie
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jordan Gallacher" <jgallacher1987 at gmail.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:51 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>
>>
>>> Thanks Dan.   You seem to be one of the few on this group who see things
>>> the
>>> same way I do.
>>> Jordan
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Dan Weiner
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 8:15 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Hawaii
>>>
>>> What is of concern to me, Dan, anyway, is that we have to show any
>>> paperwork, have international health certificates, blood tests, and so
>>> on,
>>> for a state of the USA in order to be accompanied by our guide dogs.
>>> This is something I've only had to do when I travel to other countries.
>>> If
>>
>>> I
>>> had to do this every time I traveled to another state here, I'd be 
>>> forced
>>> not to bring my dog with me often and I'm a safer traveler with a dog.
>>>
>>> Yes, I know it may never be resolved, but that's my opinion and what I 
>>> at
>>> least find objectionable.
>>>
>>> Dan W.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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