[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: questions I get from my bus driver thatisnot anaccessible bus just regular bus

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Fri Dec 10 19:17:32 UTC 2010 

Hup!  If you keep working it and you're the one who gets hurt, then it's
what you had coming, right?

If you choose to keep working a dog that is unsafe to others, then they get
to pay for your folly as well.  Well, I can't see you, Rebecca, doing that,
but you're the one who made yourself the example.  /smile/

Since I finally got over my own apparent addiction to the guide dog mystique
and figured out that every guide dog by mine is not absolutely perfect at
absolutely every second, and some of them even go around growling while
their handlers chuckle and everyone complains about it but the handler
doesn't care (there's gotta be one in every crowd, I guess), I started
really wondering what the protocol is for interacting with said dog and
chuckling handler.  (Oh, he's a shepherd, you know).  There I was, still
trying to teach my dog proper etiquette while trying to figure out the full
details of what proper etiquette actually is, for both of us, then I
suddenly discover that I really don't know the etiquette for dealing with
someone else's failure to observe etiquette.  /lol/  I started feeling
snarky about the whole thing, which could be why my dog went through that
charming period where she thought it was her job to snark at other guide
dogs so they wouldn't make me snarky...  It very well could be.  Like they
say, "Praise the dog; beat the trainer."

Anyway, if someone today were to come to me and ask, "What should you do
when ...?" I still would have absolutely no intelligible answer.  Even if
they asked, "What would *you* do if...?" I couldn't come up with a
reasonable strategy.  There are times when the very, very obvious, "Just
don't be around that guy and his dog," approach works.  But what if you're
at a function where people are moving around and you can't avoid the pair
because you don't know their there until you hear the growl and chuckle?

I can safely say that I would start to be annoyed, and then I would be very
zen, because I do *not* want my poodle picking up on my attitude and
thinking she needs to tell the other dogs about it.  Been there, done that,
no more.  /smile/  We are all happy here and love everybody!

I am also happy to report that I have not gained enough experience with such
situations -- where the breach seemed to go no further than shocking
rudeness -- to have been able to work it through by trial and error.
Knowing these things happen and that some dogs are truly out of control in a
scary way, I've sort of come up with a vague strategy and added in a couple
of training extras for Mitzi.  Which I got to use last time I had to drop by
the Oregon Commission for the Blind so as not to be hurt by out of control
aggressive social workers.  Then I had to continue to remove myself from the
situation because of sudden onset rabies.  But Mitzi kept safe on her part
by moving behind me at my gesture, so we were able to back up quickly to get
out of the way until I found the door and get us completely out of harm's
way.  So I guess we have our act down somewhat, just haven't had to use it
for vicious dogs yet.  /smile/

Still, if my dog is unsafe, that's on me.  If another dog is unsafe around
me and my dog, that's on me, too, because we're the only ones I have control
over.  Or so it seems to me.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:58 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: questions I get from my bus driver
thatisnot anaccessible bus just regular bus

Agreed. And if I choose to work a dog that is unsafe well, that's on me.


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of The Pawpower Pack
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 9:50 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver that
isnot anaccessible bus just regular bus

Jordan, If my dog becomes distracted and I get hurt, it's not anyone's
falt but mine for not training the dog to ignore distractions. If a
program did the training and I didn't keep that training up it would
still be my falt. If it can be proved that the program wasn't thorough
enough in their training, then perhaps it could be their falt.  But if
someone brings a pet dog into public it is reasonable for my dog to keep
working.  She may require some redirection from me but that should be
all. 

Rox 
Sent from my iPhone

On 10 Dec 2010, at 08:35 AM, "Jordan Gallacher"
<jgallacher1987 at gmail.com> wrote:

> No, no, no.  If it is a pet, and it is being passed off as a service
animal,
> then there needs to be evidence of such use.  If it is a pet, and the
> business doesn't make it leave, and a person who has a legit service
animal
> gets injured in the business because his dog gets distracted, guess
who is
> liable.
> Jordan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
> Of Marion Gwizdala
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:31 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver that isnot
> anaccessible bus just regular bus
> 
> Jenine,
>    As it was stated by a DOJ Senior Trial Attorney during one of my
many 
> discussions concerning this that helped me better understand this
issue 
> while I was grappling with it, "If someone gains access with a pet
that they
> 
> are claiming to be a service animal and it is well behaved and causes
no 
> threat to the health or safety of others, what harm has been done? On
the 
> other hand, even a legitimate service animal that is a threat or is 
> disruptive can be removed!"
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver that is not 
> anaccessible bus just regular bus
> 
> 
>> Cheryl,
>> 
>> All the bus driver can ask are the two questions specified by the
DOJ.
>> 
>> Is that a service animal to assist with your disability?
>> What tasks does that animal perform?
>> 
>> 
>> If the dog is disruptive and has a history of being so on buses, then
it 
>> can
>> be banned from the buses all together. The person cannot be banned
but the
>> dog can, so if she leaves the dog at home, she can still ride.
>> 
>> If a dog gets on the bus with someone and that person says it's a
service
>> animal and the dog doesn't bother anyone, then there's nothing to be
done.
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf
>> Of cheryl echevarria
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 5:38 PM
>> To: nagdu
>> Subject: [nagdu] questions I get from my bus driver that is not an
>> accessible bus just regular bus
>> 
>> As many of you know I live out in Long Island, NY not to far from
GDF.
>> 
>> And there has been a person, who swears that there dog is a guide
dog,
>> meaning a pit bull.
>> 
>> I don't know if Jeanine knows about this issue.  But here on Long
Island, 
>> I
>> believe every year the Suffolk County Bus Company for there drivers
that 
>> is
>> called sensitivity training.
>> 
>> I wish they would allow me to come as well as being part of NAGDU,
and 
>> have
>> a representative from GDF as well as the other service animal schools
in 
>> the
>> area.
>> 
>> One day, I was a passenger on the bus when this person tried to pass
off
>> there dog as a service animal, again this dog is a pit bull.
>> 
>> I was sitting there and the driver said that we are stopping and the 
>> person
>> has a dog and has tried to get on the bus before the driver side to
me, 
>> they
>> don't carry a card with them, but they carry the print out of the ADA
law
>> with them.
>> 
>> I will tell you what happened, and then I will put what the driver's
>> question is.
>> 
>> First when the driver stopped and the woman tried to get on the bus,
now
>> mind you I sit in the front because I like to talk to my driver as
well.
>> Nice guy, many years he has been the driver, anyway she tries to get
on 
>> but
>> her dog starts to growl and bark at my dog.  Maxx moved closer to me
not
>> wanting anything to do with this dog.
>> 
>> I asked her what type of dog is that, she said a pit bull, no I said 
>> meaning
>> what kind of service animal is it.  She said he was just a service
animal
>> and that she has the paperwork to prove it. I said what job does the
dog 
>> do
>> for you, I didn't say what disability she has.  She said he is her
comfort
>> animal.  I said 1, Comfort animals are not considered Service Animals
and
>> fall under the ADA. 2. In the State of NY, especially Suffolk County
NY, 
>> and
>> some other parts of NY to even have a pit bull, and that I am blind
and a
>> graduate of GDF I said which school, and I pulled out my ID from GDF,
I do
>> not need to carry paperwork around with me and never should she. From
my
>> searching I have found that especially in the state of NY there is no
>> service animal training schools that train pit bulls. I asked her
where 
>> she
>> got her dog, she said NY.
>> 
>> The driver asked her to please leave if she could not control her
dog.
>> 
>> A few months later she tried to get on another bus and the driver let
her
>> on.
>> 
>> The driver and I spoke the other day since I had to go somewhere,
that she
>> tried to get on again on his bus, and he said he wouldn't allow the
dog on
>> the bus.
>> 
>> The driver wants to know how far are they allowed to go to stop this.
>> 
>> To many people are trying this in Suffolk County.
>> 
>> Yes we get IDs and I don't know what the big deal is about giving ID,
I
>> think that helps a lot, especially in the case that it is not always 
>> obvious
>> to lets say in this situation to tell if someone is disabled and
needs a
>> dog, I mean if a person is blind it is not always noticeable, not
everyone
>> uses dark glasses, or has a dog with a harness with the schools name
on 
>> it,
>> or a person in a wheelchair, and with more children and adult with 
>> seizures
>> or autism or other disabilities how is one to know.  You can't ask
what 
>> the
>> disability you have, you can't force a person to show ID.  What is
the
>> answer?
>> 
>> The biggest compliment you can pay me is to recommend my services!
>> 
>> Cheryl Echevarria
>> http://Echevarriatravel.com<http://echevarriatravel.com/>
>> 1-866-580-5574
>> 
>
Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.c
om>
>> 
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
>> CST-1018299-10
>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Absolute Cruise and
Travel 
>> Inc.
>> 
>> join my yahoogroup
>> 
>
echevarriatravel-subscribe at yahoogroups.com<mailto:echevarriatravel-subsc
ribe
>> @yahoogroups.com>
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