[nagdu] owner trained dogs

[Julie McGinnity]

Yes, I was just curious about it.  And, Rox  brought up an interesting
point.  You could just go up to kinkos and get yourself an ID even if
your dog isn't a service dog.  Anyone could do that.  Lol!  That made
me smile.  That's good because how the dog works and behaves is really
the thing that matters, not the pretty id card.

On 12/10/10, Julie J <julielj at windstream.net> wrote:
> Julie M,
>
> thank you!  Perfectionism is most definitely something I struggle with as an
> owner trainer.  I feel the need for perfection every single moment. I have a
> burning desire to reach the fairytale land of perfect harmony with my dog.
> However, rationally I know that this is only a theoretical ideal not an
> actual possibility.  It's a struggle to balance the two.  I always am
> working toward perfection, wile knowing at the same time that it isn't
> possible.
>
> I have never had an access issue regarding my guide dogs.  Very occasionally
> I get asked if that is a service/guide dog, which is perfectly find for a
> business to ask, but I have never been told I can't bring the dog in, that
> I'd have to eat outside or been treated any different than other patrons.  I
> have no idea if this is luck, where I live, faces I make or some mystical
> secret of the universe.  I like to think it's because my dogs are well
> behaved.  I used to carry copies of the DOJ business guidance and my state
> laws, but the papers got frazzled from years of rolling around in the bottom
> of my purse.  A couple of months ago I purchased cards that have an overview
> of the DOJ business guidance and the DOJ phone number on them.  I've never
> taken either the laws or the cards out of my purse.   A part of me is always
> leery of telling people that I have never had an access issue, because I'm
> just sure that as soon as I leave the house I'll encounter some whopper to
> balance out my luck! *smile*
>
> Julie
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] owner trained dogs
>
>
>>I wasn't sure about this one at first, but I agree with Tami and Rox.
>> I think that as long as you can show your dog can work well for you or
>> whatever the law actually says, your good to go.  Yes, people who get
>> there dogs from programs have certification cards.  Yes, these are
>> rather helpful, but should they be necessary?  No.  It doesn't make
>> sense.  That would mean that somehow owner trainers are beneath
>> program trained dogs, which is so not the truth.  You owner trainers
>> really impress me, if and only if, it's because of what Tami said.  If
>> you do something wrong, it's you who has to pay for it.  I'm such a
>> perfectionist, this scares me crazy.  So...  Owner trainers are
>> awesome and shouldn't be left out or unfairly treated.  I've been in
>> situations before, where if I hadn't had that "doggy id" I felt like I
>> would have been in trouble.  I've always wondered what owner trainers
>> would do.  It's easy enough to argue that the law says you don't need
>> it, but would they believe you?  Have any of you encountered a problem
>> like this?
>>
>> On 12/9/10, Tamara Smith-Kinney <tamara.8024 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Oh, goodie!
>>>
>>> Can they help pay for it?  All of it???
>>>
>>> Still not sure how making me get a proper i.d. for my dog witll cut down
>>> on
>>> fraud or protect people from bad behavior of legit sd/gds or fake ones.
>>>
>>> I repsect other people's opions, honestly, I do.  But when people are
>>> getting together to do something to crack down on a problem I am not part
>>>
>>> of
>>> in a way that will cost me time and money if they have their way...
>>>
>>> Can we please look at another option?
>>>
>>> Speaking for the other owner-trainers on this list as well as myself, can
>>>
>>> we
>>> please remember that we spend more than our time to come up with a guide
>>> dog?  We pay for travel and acquisition of a guide dog prospect.  We pay
>>> for
>>> exams to ensure our chosen prospect is healthy.  We pay for vaccinations
>>> from the get-go, for spaying and neutering, for every single puppy issue
>>> that crops up.  We pay for training supplies.  If we don't happen to have
>>>
>>> a
>>> driver handy for car training, we pay for cabs to teach our dogs to have
>>> manners in a car.  Some of us, by which I mean this one of us, even
>>> volunteer to pay the "drunk fee" a coupld of times as well as ridiculous
>>> tips, even the cab driver insists we don't because, well, anxiety and
>>> motion
>>> sickness are hard on a cab.  Ugh!  Nice cabbies every time, but that's
>>> their
>>> business and it was my pup, so I didn't take a pass on helping with the
>>> cleanup expense even when they tried to insist.  We will not talk about
>>> the
>>> period of chronic diarrhea some breeds with builds like my poodle are
>>> prone
>>> to if their organs grow too fast for their skeletons.  You don't *know*
>>> that's what's going on, and you spend a lot on the vet to make sure it's
>>> not
>>> serious.  Not to mention cleanup costs and effort.  Yuck!
>>>
>>> Puppy chow, puppy supplements, vet consultations, consultations with
>>> nutritionists....  A second harness because your pup outgrew her training
>>> harness.  A few collars, leashes the puppy chewed, other things the puppy
>>> chewed....  Tums for the human acid stomach caused by the extreme stress
>>> of
>>> not doing in the puppy...  /smile/
>>>
>>> Clickers, training treats, more clickers, other training supplies....
>>>
>>> Transportation to and from more advanced training venues to expose the
>>> dog
>>> then introduce working concepts, then work that environment.
>>>
>>> And on.  And on.
>>>
>>> Nobody paid for this but me.  Nor paid for my time.  No volunteers to
>>> raise
>>> my puppy until a paid professional could take over until somebody paid my
>>> airfare to and from, along with my room and board for 4 weeks so I could
>>> bring her home as a trained dog with a good set of handling skills
>>> somebody
>>> was paid to teach me.
>>>
>>> Nobody taught to give my dog a bath without getting shampoo in her eyes.
>>> I
>>> just did that because there was no one to show me.  I was nervous about
>>> the
>>> possibilities, but we seem to have figured it out with no damage to the
>>> poodle's eyes or anything else.  Nobody worked out her fedding schedule
>>> and
>>> needs and told me how to put food and water out for her.  Well, as a
>>> ranch
>>> girl, I didn't need that.  Had I gone to a guide dog program for a dog,
>>> though, I'm pretty sure someone would have taught me exactly how to do
>>> all
>>> of that, whether I needed it or not.  Sigh.
>>>
>>> This isn't something I thought I would ever feel compelled to bring up on
>>> this list or elsewhere, but will someone, for pete's sake, just once
>>> demonstrate that nobody *gave* us owner-trainers our dogs?  Nobody *paid*
>>> for us to come get them, or to teach us how to use them or anything else.
>>> Honestly, the lowest cost of producing a guide dog by a program recently
>>> was
>>> $60,000.  Per dog!  Last I checked, the two guide dog programs I would
>>> consider applying to should the need arise for me spend much, much more.
>>> That's what it would cost them (aka their donors) to provide me with a
>>> freshly trained green dog.
>>>
>>> I would, I assure you, start training the dog the second I got home to
>>> bring
>>> it up to the skill level Mitzi had at that age.  She had the same lack of
>>> maturity then this imaginary program-trained dog would, but she had some
>>> pretty advanced skills, and has learned more.  In other words -- and I
>>> mention my two top-list schools because of many aspects of their quality
>>> of
>>> training and professionalism -- would not be up to snuff by the standard
>>> of
>>> my owner-trained pup at that age.
>>>
>>> So now I'm supposed to go through a bunch of extra hoops, spend a bunch
>>> of
>>> extra time and spend a bunch of extra money to prove that my dog is as
>>> legitimate a guide dog as those so many in this group were *given*?  On
>>> the
>>> theory, which I have to say I absolutely do not get, that this will
>>> prevent
>>> people who had their dogs *given* to them from having access issues in
>>> the
>>> future at a place where I've no doubt never been?
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong.  I think it is just gum dandy that there are so many
>>> programs to choose from that will freely provide a gum dandy guide dog to
>>> any qualified person who chooses one of that programs guide dogs as a
>>> mobility option.  From the donors to the puppy raisers to the underpaid
>>> trainers who do it because they love it to everyone else involved, it
>>> just
>>> the most amazingly fantastic thing.  It really, really is.  I love it
>>> that
>>> there are people just going about in the world who make such an
>>> incredible
>>> resource available to folks they will probably never meet just because
>>> they
>>> want to.  Wow!  Huh?  Choosing to take advantage of that gift and make
>>> the
>>> most of it honors those people while improving the life experience of the
>>> handler.  Win win.
>>>
>>> It's just as legitimate a choice to take the gift of a guide dog from a
>>> training program as it is to provide that resource for yourself.  Llike I
>>> did.  /evil grin/  Wonder who has the program dog I left available
>>> because I
>>> changed course and decided to train Mitzi.  I only meant her for a pet
>>> and
>>> was going to get a "real" guide dog from a program in what would have
>>> been
>>> the past couple of years, unless Mitzi "turned out to have the right
>>> stuff."
>>> Boy, did she!  So someone somewhere had a shorter wait time and has the
>>> dog
>>> I would have gotten if I hadn't owner trained.  I know it's at least 2
>>> with
>>> Julie, whom no one will question is qualified for a program dog.  How
>>> many
>>> for Rox by now?  She's no longer out based on multiple disabilities, I
>>> think, but still choses the do-it-yourself option.  Haven't heard from
>>> Ann
>>> lately, but her Panda is worth 3 guide dogs right there because
>>> mini-horses
>>> live so much longer.  Am I missing anybody?  Anybody want to grab a
>>> calendar
>>> and draw up some charts and graphs to see if we can guess whose dog here
>>> an
>>> owner-trainer doesn't have instead?
>>>
>>> Oh, I was getting on my horse about several themes impacting owner
>>> trainers
>>> in general and forgot to whose message I was ranting...  Hi, Rox!  /grin/
>>>
>>> Still, I keep getting a feeling of people wanting to get together to do
>>> something about requiring owner-trainers to be required to have a valid
>>> i.d.
>>> in order to keep frauds from impinging their access rights....  I've been
>>> through a number of rounds of philosophical discussions on the subject of
>>> how to prove a service dog is legit, and I've been really happy and proud
>>> that NAGDU has officially come out against the notion of certification
>>> for
>>> owner-trainers.
>>>
>>> Since somebody did (before I fell even more behind writing this
>>> monstrosity)
>>> mention the problem of readily available harnesses:::  Are you going out
>>> of
>>> business as we speak for the safety of all of us?  Gosh, I sure hope not!
>>>
>>> I
>>> just now got my shiny new purple Laveau style harness to supplement my
>>> fire-engine red sports harness from On-the-Go, and I'm just getting
>>> started
>>> on my list of interchangeable harnesses.  I could make one my ownself if
>>> I
>>> really wanted to, but you guys are just so much better at it!  /grin/
>>>
>>> Shutting up now.  Maybe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tami Smith-Kinney
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 4:05 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] owner trained dogs
>>>
>>> Jordan,
>>> Do you know how many program dogs have lunged at, growled at, or
>>> otherwise posed a threat to my guide?  Several.  If I am forced to
>>> undergo some kind of "certification" then I will do my level best to
>>> make sure that every assistance dog, program or owner trained does as
>>> well.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rox and the Herbal HenchHounds:
>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>> "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm
>>> not sure about the universe."-Albert Einstein
>>> http://www.pawpowercreations.com
>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>> AIM: Brissysgirl
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/tamara.8024%40comcast
>>> .net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie McG
>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>> Eyes for the Blind
>>
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream.net
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16