[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers

Nicole B. Torcolini at Home ntorcolini at wavecable.com
Thu Dec 23 01:56:46 UTC 2010


GDB clicker trains their dogs, and the dogs are trained to touch the hand of 
the handler so that the handler can use his/her hand as a way of directing 
the dog to an object that the dog is to learn how to locate. Consequently, 
Lexia has always been used to tapping my hand with her nose. She will often 
tap other items for no particular reason.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "GARY STEEVES" <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers


> Hi Jeanine :
>
> Yes, good old poodles. This wasn't done with Bogart, or as you say, they 
> are hand shy. He often comes back to me but I still seem to have to be 
> reaching/feeling around in the air to find him. He seems to have this 
> three foot rule. If I drop the leash or harness he will stop immediately 
> but always seems to be about 3 feet from me. If I call him back he seems 
> to stay about 3 feet from  me. If he is fetching a ball he seems to drop 
> it about 3  feet or so from where I'm standing. (easy to see how that 
> would be a problem :)
>
> I think the next thing we are going to try and train him is to find his 
> toys before he leaves a park.  I almost lost his frisbee once but just as 
> we were walking away he started pulling to my left so I went with it. we 
> ended up at the lost frisbee. However, when my girlfriend took him for a 
> walk to the park last week because I had a gig I was at, they lost his 
> favourite bouncy ball. It is always  nice to know that some things he does 
> are just poodle tendancies. :)
>
> Gary
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at wowway.com>
> Date: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 3:57 pm
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re:  contact with puppy raisers/walkers
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>
>> I believe our puppy walkers use food initially then simply
>> praise to reward
>> the behavior of touching when the dog is called to you. They
>> start this
>> extremely early though.
>>
>> Some dogs, like Poodles, can be hand shy so getting them used to
>> touchingand being touched early really helps us. My poor Doodle
>> didn't have this
>> early training and hence never really did come to touch me when
>> called.
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org]
>> On Behalf
>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:27 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>
>> Hi Janine,
>> Interesting about what the GDF does nowadays. I got my first two
>> dogs there
>> and I had to retire the first one because of relieving
>> issues.  She wouldn't
>>
>> want to do Number 2 when I took her to go.  So, she held it
>> and held it as
>> long as she could and that resulted in her dumping like a horse
>> as wwe
>> walked along.  People would yell at me for it but it was
>> already trailed
>> along the walkway and couldn't see it to pick it up.  So, I
>> couldn't ever
>> stop this behavior in that dog and had tp retire her.
>>
>> My question to you is:  How do you teach the dog to touch
>> you when you ask
>> it to come to you?  Landon comes but not touch me or is a
>> few feet from me.
>> I tap my leg and he does come closer.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>
>>
>> > Lynne,
>> >
>> > Good questions. Also, dogs go through several fear periods as
>> puppies so
>> > if
>> > you asked your dog's raiser if the dog was ever afraid of X, Y
>> or Z, the
>> > answer night be yes, depending on where that experience fell
>> in its
>> > development.
>> >
>> >
>> > As for leash relieving, I can only speak for GDF but our puppy
>> manual and
>> > all Area Coordinators teach raisers to relieve the dogs on
>> leash, on
>> > concrete and if that's not possible, on a variety of surfaces
>> other than
>> > grass. We know that some raisers are more diligent about this
>> than others
>> > but we saw a huge improvement in leash relieving issues once
>> this was
>> > really
>> > stressed to raisers.
>> >
>> > I'm excited because on January 9 I'll be meeting with the
>> puppy group that
>> > was part of Swap's upbringing, and staying with his puppy
>> walker in
>> > Lakeland, Florida. She's raised I believe around 15 pups now
>> and the group
>> > is quite active. It will be fun for them to see a working dog
>> and fun for
>> > us
>> > to see all those puppies in various stages of development.
>> >
>> > I agree that it's important for puppy groups and individuals
>> to see blind
>> > people and how we actually work with our dogs.
>> >
>> > GDF is also stressing that dogs touch handlers when returning
>> on the come
>> > command. This is probably pretty standard and one of those no-
>> brainer> things, but wow, what a difference once it was really
>> stressed in the
>> > puppy
>> > homes.
>> >
>> > Jenine Stanley
>> > jeninems at wowway.com
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>> > Of Lyn Gwizdak
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:33 PM
>> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>> >
>> > Thanks, Janine.
>> >
>> > I'm wondering if the things people blame on puppy raisers
>> reflect on the
>> > fact that most people really don't know exactly what it is the
>> raisers do
>> > with the puppies to make them guide dog training ready.
>> >
>> > Yeah, folks know that the raisers house train and leash train
>> the pups.
>> > they bring them out into all sorts of human envirnment to get
>> them used to
>> > our world of humans that the adult guide will work in.
>> It is theory and
>> > not
>> >
>> > actual concrete things we hear about what is actually done
>> with the pups
>> > to
>> > get them ready for us. For example, what are the raisers
>> teaching the pups
>> > in regards to leash relieving?  Most people take their
>> dogs for a walk
>> > allowing the dog to pee or poop whereever they choose while on
>> that walk.
>> > Blind people with guide dogs have a spot and stand there with
>> the dog
>> > being
>> > allowed to choose the elimiation spots only within the radius
>> of the
>> > leash.
>> > I have had dogs who have a difficult time with relieving on
>> leash in one
>> > place - particularly to do Number 2.  I wonder if that
>> dog was walked on
>> > leash in the manner that most pet dogs do.
>> >
>> > I have heard about things because I see the puppy raisers at
>> our annual
>> > event here. I also have good friends who have raised a
>> puppy.  Likewise,
>> > the
>> >
>> > raisers don't really get to see many blind guide dog users and
>> what we do
>> > and how we do it.
>> >
>> > So, there is a need for the raisers and users to get together
>> to share our
>> > stories in other ways if our schools don't have the raisers
>> meet their
>> > dog's
>> >
>> > recipient as many schools do.
>> >
>> > Lyn and Landon
>> > ----- Original Message ----- 
>> > From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
>> > To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'"> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:17 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>> >
>> >
>> >> Rebecca,
>> >>
>> >> I think you are correct to an extent, especially about
>> changing policies
>> >> from within, but one thing to remember is that puppies change
>> a great
>> >> deal
>> >> over the time they are with their raisers, just like your own
>> child. Some
>> >> things they do are predictable, some behaviors can be shaped,
>> stopped or
>> >> yes, in some cases encouraged.
>> >>
>> >> Would you want someone comparing your daughter at age 5 to
>> her adult self
>> >> and asking why you let her do X, Y or Z?
>> >>
>> >> I hear a lot of people saying that behaviors they observe in
>> their dogs
>> >> as
>> >> adults are directly related to something the puppy raiser did
>> or did not
>> >> do,
>> >> usually in the negative.
>> >>
>> >> I've had several dogs whose raisers said they were surprised
>> the dog made
>> >> it
>> >> to be a guide, only because they remembered the dog's teenage
>> years as it
>> >> were and based their opinion not on any specific bad behavior
>> but the
>> >> dog's
>> >> general attitude. I've also had one dog who never did certain
>> things as a
>> >> puppy that he definitely did as an adult, and he developed those
>> >> behaviors,
>> >> like a kid going off to college, once he got into the kennel
>> setting.>> Luckily, they weren't horrific behaviors, but the
>> raiser was shocked to
>> >> hear
>> >> he did such things, even in his kennel profiles. Yep, he was
>> quite the
>> >> frat
>> >> boy, partying with the kennel mates, opening run doors and
>> crate doors
>> >> and
>> >> egging on other dogs. I called him the Bart Simpson of guide
>> dogs for a
>> >> reason. :)
>> >>
>> >> Yes, some bad habits, as well as some good ones, can start
>> and magnify in
>> >> the puppy home but remember, not everything does. n
>> >>
>> >> Jenine Stanley
>> >> jeninems at wowway.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> >> Behalf
>> >> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) (Internet)
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:58 AM
>> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy
>> raisers/walkers>>
>> >> Marsha,
>> >> I am sorry this happened to you. Truly I am.
>> >> I do want to say that "find a different school" isn't the
>> solution to
>> >> everything. It's like saying "If you don't like x about your
>> husband,
>> >> then
>> >> find a different husband".
>> >> Yes, that may be the answer, but why can't people try to
>> change the
>> >> policy
>> >> from within?
>> >> An argument for having contact with raisers is that they live
>> with and
>> >> observe the dog in the same conditions you do. The trainers
>> do not live
>> >> with
>> >> the dogs, and I do think that impacts what they observe and
>> how they
>> >> observe
>> >> it. It's like living with a person and noticing things that
>> you wouldn't
>> >> notice if you didn't live with them.
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> >> Behalf
>> >> Of Marsha Drenth
>> >> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:36 AM
>> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
>> Dog Users'
>> >> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>> >>
>> >> Ginger, Thank you for this explaination. As an SE grad, I
>> have no problem
>> >> with the way the puppy raising contact is done now. I
>> completely see why
>> >> its
>> >> done the way it is. And I know that if I wanted to send a
>> letter to
>> >> Emma's
>> >> raiser, then I can do so. I would rather stay private. I mean
>> don't get
>> >> me
>> >> wrong, how they raised Emma was wonderful, but neither do I
>> need anything
>> >> else from them. With my previous pup, from GDB. I had a bad raiser
>> >> experience. After only 4 years of working Heather, I was
>> forced to retire
>> >> her. And because I did so, the raiser, got very upset at me.
>> She was
>> >> never
>> >> meant to be a guide, and I have no clue why GDB put her
>> through the
>> >> training. She was a wonderful pup, just not meant to do guide
>> work. The
>> >> raiser blamed me for her ability not to work. And believe me
>> if I could
>> >> have
>> >> done something to make that dog work, then I would.
>> >>
>> >> So as a SE grad, I know why they did it this way. If you
>> don't like it,
>> >> then
>> >> maybe those of you who have real issues with the policy
>> should find
>> >> another
>> >> school.
>> >>
>> >> Just my two cents for whatever its worth,
>> >> Marsha
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-
>> bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> >> Behalf
>> >> Of Ginger Kutsch
>> >> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:07 AM
>> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> >> Subject: Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>> >>
>> >> All,
>> >>
>> >> There is a question about The Seeing Eye's policy regarding
>> >> raiser contact on the consumer satisfaction survey that graduates
>> >> are invited to participate in after they have been home with
>> >> their dogs for nine months. When I worked on the consumer
>> >> satisfaction committee, the majority of respondents,
>> >> approximately 80%, were satisfied with the current puppy raiser
>> >> contact policy.
>> >>
>> >> As a graduate of The Seeing Eye, I have no strong feeling one way
>> >> or another about puppy raiser contact. I've written a thank you
>> >> note to my puppy raisers for each of my three dogs and have never
>> >> received a response. Whether I am able to have direct
>> >> communication with my puppy raiser or not has no bearing on my
>> >> dog's ability to guide me safely and effectively. Therefore, it
>> >> is not part of my decision making process when I consider a
>> >> school.
>> >>
>> >> There are, however,  several graduates who attend The
>> Seeing Eye
>> >> because there is *no contact. Whether we are all "adults" or not,
>> >> people are generally brought up to feel obligated in some way to
>> >> those people who offer us assistance, give us gifts, etc. How
>> >> many times have you done something simply because you feel
>> >> obligated?
>> >>
>> >> The fact is that, whether we call ourselves "consumers" or not,
>> >> when we attend a guide dog school and receive a dog, we are
>> >> accepting charity. Those people who raise puppies for a guide dog
>> >> school are performing a charitable act. If you consider the
>> >> definition of charity for a moment, it may give you more insight
>> >> on the philosophy of The Seeing Eye. Charity is defined as 1),
>> >> generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless;
>> >> And 2), something given to a person or persons in need.
>> >>
>> >> Early on, The Seeing Eye created policies that supported its
>> >> belief that blind people deserved respect and dignity. Now I know
>> >> there are some on this list that dislike the word dignity, but
>> >> when applied correctly, one realizes that The Seeing Eye's tag
>> >> line  is not saying that dogs provide independence and
>> dignity;>> but rather  it's saying that the organization
>> firmly believes
>> >> that independence and dignity is a right that everyone deserves.
>> >>
>> >> That said, many of the policies that The Seeing Eye upholds
>> >> support this belief.
>> >>
>> >> 1. There is a charge for the dog. Seeing Eye does not advertise
>> >> that a blind person can come get a dog for free. This smacks of
>> >> "charity".  The fee hardly covers the true cost of the
>> dog and
>> >> may only be symbolic, but it enables the organization to promote
>> >> its belief that blind people are not looking for a hand-out but
>> >> rather a hand-up.
>> >>
>> >> 2. The Seeing Eye does not accept funding, or ask its graduates
>> >> to seek funding, for any one individual's  specific training
>> >> needs. I think Buddy's post adequately explained the reason for
>> >> this policy.
>> >>
>> >> 3. The Seeing Eye does not facilitate puppy raiser contact. This
>> >> policy is in keeping with the organization's belief that blind
>> >> people who receive a dog from The Seeing Eye are not charity
>> >> cases but rather individuals who are looking to enhance their
>> >> lives. This policy switches the focus of puppy raising from
>> >> raising a dog for any one blind individual to raising the dog for
>> >> an organization that provides dogs for the blind. This makes the
>> >> organization obligated to the puppy raisers, rather than placing
>> >> that burden on the individual blind person.
>> >>
>> >> Years ago when graduates expressed a desire to be able to
>> >> personally thank their puppy raisers if they so chose, The Seeing
>> >> Eye responded and created a system so that graduates might do so
>> >> while still preserving anonymity. Since the majority of Seeing
>> >> Eye graduates are satisfied with the current policy on puppy
>> >> raiser contact, it's highly unlikely that the organization will
>> >> seek to change it at this point.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, I'm not speaking on behalf of the organization, just
>> >> offering my two cents for what its worth!
>> >>
>> >> Ginger,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >>
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