[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers

[James Brown]

Fidelco trained us with the fist tap.  A lowered fist is the sign for come. 
When I lower a balled fist, Jordan comes and taps my fist with his nose.

Here is a way to get them familiar with touching your hand.  I start with 
both my hands behind my back with a treat in one fist.  Jordan would be 
sitting in front of me, and I would pull out the fist without the treat 
towards his face and say Jordan.  He would tap my fist with his nose, and I 
would immediately bring around the reward from the other hand.  As we built 
on the training, I would bring around the one fist, call his name, get a 
nose tap, put my hand back behind my back, switch the treat to the opposite 
hand, then pull the other fist out, call his name, get a tap, and repeat 
several times before giving him his reward.

For some reason, I love how we can communicate non verbally now.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Lyn Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:26 PM
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re:  contact with puppy raisers/walkers

> Hi Janine,
> Interesting about what the GDF does nowadays. I got my first two dogs 
> there and I had to retire the first one because of relieving issues.  She 
> wouldn't want to do Number 2 when I took her to go.  So, she held it and 
> held it as long as she could and that resulted in her dumping like a horse 
> as wwe walked along.  People would yell at me for it but it was already 
> trailed along the walkway and couldn't see it to pick it up.  So, I 
> couldn't ever stop this behavior in that dog and had tp retire her.
>
> My question to you is:  How do you teach the dog to touch you when you ask 
> it to come to you?  Landon comes but not touch me or is a few feet from 
> me. I tap my leg and he does come closer.
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>
>
>> Lynne,
>>
>> Good questions. Also, dogs go through several fear periods as puppies so 
>> if
>> you asked your dog's raiser if the dog was ever afraid of X, Y or Z, the
>> answer night be yes, depending on where that experience fell in its
>> development.
>>
>>
>> As for leash relieving, I can only speak for GDF but our puppy manual and
>> all Area Coordinators teach raisers to relieve the dogs on leash, on
>> concrete and if that's not possible, on a variety of surfaces other than
>> grass. We know that some raisers are more diligent about this than others
>> but we saw a huge improvement in leash relieving issues once this was 
>> really
>> stressed to raisers.
>>
>> I'm excited because on January 9 I'll be meeting with the puppy group 
>> that
>> was part of Swap's upbringing, and staying with his puppy walker in
>> Lakeland, Florida. She's raised I believe around 15 pups now and the 
>> group
>> is quite active. It will be fun for them to see a working dog and fun for 
>> us
>> to see all those puppies in various stages of development.
>>
>> I agree that it's important for puppy groups and individuals to see blind
>> people and how we actually work with our dogs.
>>
>> GDF is also stressing that dogs touch handlers when returning on the come
>> command. This is probably pretty standard and one of those no-brainer
>> things, but wow, what a difference once it was really stressed in the 
>> puppy
>> homes.
>>
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Lyn Gwizdak
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 4:33 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>
>> Thanks, Janine.
>>
>> I'm wondering if the things people blame on puppy raisers reflect on the
>> fact that most people really don't know exactly what it is the raisers do
>> with the puppies to make them guide dog training ready.
>>
>> Yeah, folks know that the raisers house train and leash train the pups.
>> they bring them out into all sorts of human envirnment to get them used 
>> to
>> our world of humans that the adult guide will work in.  It is theory and 
>> not
>>
>> actual concrete things we hear about what is actually done with the pups 
>> to
>> get them ready for us. For example, what are the raisers teaching the 
>> pups
>> in regards to leash relieving?  Most people take their dogs for a walk
>> allowing the dog to pee or poop whereever they choose while on that walk.
>> Blind people with guide dogs have a spot and stand there with the dog 
>> being
>> allowed to choose the elimiation spots only within the radius of the 
>> leash.
>> I have had dogs who have a difficult time with relieving on leash in one
>> place - particularly to do Number 2.  I wonder if that dog was walked on
>> leash in the manner that most pet dogs do.
>>
>> I have heard about things because I see the puppy raisers at our annual
>> event here. I also have good friends who have raised a puppy.  Likewise, 
>> the
>>
>> raisers don't really get to see many blind guide dog users and what we do
>> and how we do it.
>>
>> So, there is a need for the raisers and users to get together to share 
>> our
>> stories in other ways if our schools don't have the raisers meet their 
>> dog's
>>
>> recipient as many schools do.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Jenine Stanley" <jeninems at wowway.com>
>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 6:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>
>>
>>> Rebecca,
>>>
>>> I think you are correct to an extent, especially about changing policies
>>> from within, but one thing to remember is that puppies change a great 
>>> deal
>>> over the time they are with their raisers, just like your own child. 
>>> Some
>>> things they do are predictable, some behaviors can be shaped, stopped or
>>> yes, in some cases encouraged.
>>>
>>> Would you want someone comparing your daughter at age 5 to her adult 
>>> self
>>> and asking why you let her do X, Y or Z?
>>>
>>> I hear a lot of people saying that behaviors they observe in their dogs 
>>> as
>>> adults are directly related to something the puppy raiser did or did not
>>> do,
>>> usually in the negative.
>>>
>>> I've had several dogs whose raisers said they were surprised the dog 
>>> made
>>> it
>>> to be a guide, only because they remembered the dog's teenage years as 
>>> it
>>> were and based their opinion not on any specific bad behavior but the
>>> dog's
>>> general attitude. I've also had one dog who never did certain things as 
>>> a
>>> puppy that he definitely did as an adult, and he developed those
>>> behaviors,
>>> like a kid going off to college, once he got into the kennel setting.
>>> Luckily, they weren't horrific behaviors, but the raiser was shocked to
>>> hear
>>> he did such things, even in his kennel profiles. Yep, he was quite the
>>> frat
>>> boy, partying with the kennel mates, opening run doors and crate doors 
>>> and
>>> egging on other dogs. I called him the Bart Simpson of guide dogs for a
>>> reason. :)
>>>
>>> Yes, some bad habits, as well as some good ones, can start and magnify 
>>> in
>>> the puppy home but remember, not everything does. n
>>>
>>> Jenine Stanley
>>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC) (Internet)
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:58 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>>
>>> Marsha,
>>> I am sorry this happened to you. Truly I am.
>>> I do want to say that "find a different school" isn't the solution to
>>> everything. It's like saying "If you don't like x about your husband, 
>>> then
>>> find a different husband".
>>> Yes, that may be the answer, but why can't people try to change the 
>>> policy
>>> from within?
>>> An argument for having contact with raisers is that they live with and
>>> observe the dog in the same conditions you do. The trainers do not live
>>> with
>>> the dogs, and I do think that impacts what they observe and how they
>>> observe
>>> it. It's like living with a person and noticing things that you wouldn't
>>> notice if you didn't live with them.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Marsha Drenth
>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:36 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>>
>>> Ginger, Thank you for this explaination. As an SE grad, I have no 
>>> problem
>>> with the way the puppy raising contact is done now. I completely see why
>>> its
>>> done the way it is. And I know that if I wanted to send a letter to 
>>> Emma's
>>> raiser, then I can do so. I would rather stay private. I mean don't get 
>>> me
>>> wrong, how they raised Emma was wonderful, but neither do I need 
>>> anything
>>> else from them. With my previous pup, from GDB. I had a bad raiser
>>> experience. After only 4 years of working Heather, I was forced to 
>>> retire
>>> her. And because I did so, the raiser, got very upset at me. She was 
>>> never
>>> meant to be a guide, and I have no clue why GDB put her through the
>>> training. She was a wonderful pup, just not meant to do guide work. The
>>> raiser blamed me for her ability not to work. And believe me if I could
>>> have
>>> done something to make that dog work, then I would.
>>>
>>> So as a SE grad, I know why they did it this way. If you don't like it,
>>> then
>>> maybe those of you who have real issues with the policy should find
>>> another
>>> school.
>>>
>>> Just my two cents for whatever its worth,
>>> Marsha
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Ginger Kutsch
>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 9:07 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] contact with puppy raisers/walkers
>>>
>>> All,
>>>
>>> There is a question about The Seeing Eye's policy regarding
>>> raiser contact on the consumer satisfaction survey that graduates
>>> are invited to participate in after they have been home with
>>> their dogs for nine months. When I worked on the consumer
>>> satisfaction committee, the majority of respondents,
>>> approximately 80%, were satisfied with the current puppy raiser
>>> contact policy.
>>>
>>> As a graduate of The Seeing Eye, I have no strong feeling one way
>>> or another about puppy raiser contact. I've written a thank you
>>> note to my puppy raisers for each of my three dogs and have never
>>> received a response. Whether I am able to have direct
>>> communication with my puppy raiser or not has no bearing on my
>>> dog's ability to guide me safely and effectively. Therefore, it
>>> is not part of my decision making process when I consider a
>>> school.
>>>
>>> There are, however,  several graduates who attend The Seeing Eye
>>> because there is *no contact. Whether we are all "adults" or not,
>>> people are generally brought up to feel obligated in some way to
>>> those people who offer us assistance, give us gifts, etc. How
>>> many times have you done something simply because you feel
>>> obligated?
>>>
>>> The fact is that, whether we call ourselves "consumers" or not,
>>> when we attend a guide dog school and receive a dog, we are
>>> accepting charity. Those people who raise puppies for a guide dog
>>> school are performing a charitable act. If you consider the
>>> definition of charity for a moment, it may give you more insight
>>> on the philosophy of The Seeing Eye. Charity is defined as 1),
>>> generous actions or donations to aid the poor, ill, or helpless;
>>> And 2), something given to a person or persons in need.
>>>
>>> Early on, The Seeing Eye created policies that supported its
>>> belief that blind people deserved respect and dignity. Now I know
>>> there are some on this list that dislike the word dignity, but
>>> when applied correctly, one realizes that The Seeing Eye's tag
>>> line  is not saying that dogs provide independence and dignity;
>>> but rather  it's saying that the organization firmly believes
>>> that independence and dignity is a right that everyone deserves.
>>>
>>> That said, many of the policies that The Seeing Eye upholds
>>> support this belief.
>>>
>>> 1. There is a charge for the dog. Seeing Eye does not advertise
>>> that a blind person can come get a dog for free. This smacks of
>>> "charity".  The fee hardly covers the true cost of the dog and
>>> may only be symbolic, but it enables the organization to promote
>>> its belief that blind people are not looking for a hand-out but
>>> rather a hand-up.
>>>
>>> 2. The Seeing Eye does not accept funding, or ask its graduates
>>> to seek funding, for any one individual's  specific training
>>> needs. I think Buddy's post adequately explained the reason for
>>> this policy.
>>>
>>> 3. The Seeing Eye does not facilitate puppy raiser contact. This
>>> policy is in keeping with the organization's belief that blind
>>> people who receive a dog from The Seeing Eye are not charity
>>> cases but rather individuals who are looking to enhance their
>>> lives. This policy switches the focus of puppy raising from
>>> raising a dog for any one blind individual to raising the dog for
>>> an organization that provides dogs for the blind. This makes the
>>> organization obligated to the puppy raisers, rather than placing
>>> that burden on the individual blind person.
>>>
>>> Years ago when graduates expressed a desire to be able to
>>> personally thank their puppy raisers if they so chose, The Seeing
>>> Eye responded and created a system so that graduates might do so
>>> while still preserving anonymity. Since the majority of Seeing
>>> Eye graduates are satisfied with the current policy on puppy
>>> raiser contact, it's highly unlikely that the organization will
>>> seek to change it at this point.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I'm not speaking on behalf of the organization, just
>>> offering my two cents for what its worth!
>>>
>>> Ginger,
>>>
>>>
>>>
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