[nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Dan Weiner dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
Fri Jan 1 10:48:43 UTC 2010


Hi, Albert and all.

First of all, let me wish all the two-legged and four-legged denizens of the
list a happy and healthy New Year!

Let's see, the other day my dog, Carter, sniffed a bush as we were passing.
An observant passer-by noticed it and says "He's sniffing a bush, why is he
doing that?"
Then they said "Oh, I thought they weren't supposed to do that, aren't they
supposed to pay attention?"
So, my conclusion after many years, well not many compared to some here,
only fifteen years--smile--is that people have the stereotype that a guide
dog is like a robot or maybe like Lassie.
This is sad to me, because not only does it show an ignorance of the fact
that we blind people have a brain--smile--but it also doesn't give the dogs
credit for the really wonderful work these charming and graceful animals do
to improve our mobility.
A guide dog is amazing, but not because it's a robot that works on
auto-pilot, but because it's a well-trained dog and because we can get
around better by working with another species, think about it, that's the
incredible thing to me.
And sometimes I am really amazed by what my dog does, the initiative he
shows.
and sometimes, when I'm in synch with a dog and we're in even very complex
places we've been, he does work on auto-pilot--smile. 
But...he'll still sniff bushes--smile.

Oh, and then the same person said "Is that a seeing-eye dog?:"  I'm not
going to get in to the argument about Seeing Eye or Guide Dog or Dog guide,
here, I'm just quoting--smile.
I said "yes" and the individual said again something brilliant "I thought
they were better trained".

These conversations do tend to frustrate me, rather annoy me, a bit, but
what the Hell, it makes life interesting--smile


Cordially, Dan and the lovable lofty loco lab, Carter  

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 1:12 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

You know the questions I love to get, not really, are the ones like "does
the dog ever get to play"?  I mean really.  They truly do not get that in
every way the dog is a dog and needs to be treated as such, but he loves to
work and does so with pride. he is a spoiled little pup, not so little just
over 90 lbs.  I also like when they notice he picks something off the ground
and they are in awe that he would do that. he is a lab so he does what most
labs do and that would most certainly  include picking up paper and chewing
on it between rides or rests at the bus stop.  I love the questions, just
shocked at some of them for sure. happy and healthy to you

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 12:31 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

Very true!  It can be said that each of us does that each time we go out
with our guides and are seen going about our business safely and confidently
while our dogs lead us around obstacles and stop at curbs and all the other
things they do.  Going out and about is also a good time to answer questions
while you're waiting at a stop light, riding the bus or or train or
whatever.  There are days I would rather not not, but I always find I
enjoyed the conversations I've had in retrospect.  Even some of the sillier
ones.  /lol/

There was recently a public education in my neck of the woods, put on by the
dept. or agriculture or some such, and it's been interesting getting
questions based on the public's understanding of that effort.  Just when I
get used to the same old questions...  /lol/  But people are learning and
are genuinely making conversation with me while attempting to advance their
own understanding.  So they ask me what my dog does for me?  Er...  She's a
guide dog, I will explain helpfully. Quick on my feet, I am! /grin/  Yes,
but what does she *do* for you?  Does she pick things up?  Does she tell you
when it's safe to cross the street?  Does she...?  As a guide dog user, I
find some of these suggestions silly indeed, but it's a good chance to
discuss and explain.

Of course, when it's at the dog park, and I'm proudly outlining the
impressive list of functions my dog performs, then we both look at her to
see that crazy bunny lope of hers with the maniaacal poodle grin, it seems
they just can't cope with the concept that such a creature can do serious
work.  /lol/  The conversation falters after that.  But still, I think I can
say that both myself and the questioner learned something.  And Mitzi does
do a good job of showing that a guide dog out of harness is, after all, a
dog.  Or whatever that wild curly thing of mine is.  /lol/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Albert J Rizzi
Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 5:37 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

I like your reference to community. It takes a village as they say. But at
the root of what you spoke of is active and participatory education that
each of us, blind and sighted, republican and democrat, are bound to as
members of this great society of ours.  I agree that the instances must be
far and few between and that changing things will most certainly open doors
for other needless dialogues.  But if we were to go out into our communities
and dispel ignorance one store front at a time, if and when they present
themselves  we will do more for the legislation in place then would be done
in changing it before it is properly exercised.

Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
CEO/Founder
My Blind Spot, Inc.
90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
New York, New York  10004
www.myblindspot.org
PH: 917-553-0347
Fax: 212-858-5759
"The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who is
doing it."


Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn



-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Steve Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 5:13 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort

The other end to this Buddy, might be the immplementation of a registry
which would also bring in yet another cost to us, or shall I say a tax. 
Just one more layer to uncover here as it is generally required that if one
is certified, they also have to pay additional annual registry fee, which
would be undoubtedly be passed down to the user in some way shape or form. 
Just what we need, another tax.  So by creating a certification, this would
do what, create a reason to have our animals registered on a national
registry, and why would we need or want this?  Maybe I am reading too much
into this whole idea of a certification, but isn't this pretty accurate? 
Teachers, O&M instructors, all have certification processes, and have their
professional registries etc., and we need this for opening up access to
animals in training that are being denied access how often?

I'd bet you 10:1 that individuals has self-trained on this list serve, they
had very little problem in accessing places of public accommodation while
training their guide.  And this is why?  They are well-known in their
communities, have established a solid reputation, and are simply not faking
it.

Steve



----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort


> Actually, no. Unless and until I can see a fair and cost-effective program

> that would be administered by people who have a clue (and unfortunately, I

> don't see any way such a thing can happen, given the aforementioned 
> complexities coupled with government's abysmal track record at such 
> things), there's no way I can support certification. There are far too 
> many ways a certification program can either be screwed up or screw 
> somebody over.
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>
>
>
> On Dec 25, 2009, at 4:06 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>
>> So would it be safe to assume that you support certification from your
>> statement?
>>
>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>> CEO/Founder
>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>> New York, New York  10004
>> www.myblindspot.org
>> PH: 917-553-0347
>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>> is
>> doing it."
>>
>>
>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Buddy Brannan
>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 3:32 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>
>> On Dec 25, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>
>>> While we mull over what constitutes  a service animal, lets determine to
>>> include companions for the emotional and mental health concerns, 
>>> diabetic
>>> and seizure issues and any multitude   of reasons a medically prescribed
>>> animal would help one who needs one.
>>
>> Actually, let's not.
>>
>> The current definition for a service animal is, IMO, not too bad, i.e. 
>> any
>> definition of service animal must of necessity include that the animal 
>> must
>> be task trained, etc. etc. If we open up the definition further to 
>> include
>> so-called "emotional support animals", well, it isn't much further to go 
>> to
>> allow pets of all kinds. Mind you, I don't have a problem with pets in
>> public places so long as they're well-behaved and under good control. 
>> Sadly,
>> hoever, most are not, but I digress. For the brief time I was the 
>> membership
>> coordinator for IAADP (last year, actually), you wouldn't believe the 
>> number
>> of calls and Emails I had to field from people who would call asking 
>> about
>> their rights as handlers of service dogs, but it turned out that these 
>> dogs
>> had no formal task training. The dog "calmed me by its presence" or other
>> such nonsense. Friends, that is what we in the biz call a "pet".
>>
>> Now a dog that alerts to seizures, diabetic highs or lows, perhaps severe
>> allergens (yes, really, might be a stretch--I don't know), and so on, I
>> would think qualifies as a service dog, if, again, it had specific task
>> training to mitigate a disability. Say, a seizure alert dog that would 
>> alert
>> its handler to an oncoming seizure, get him/her to a safe place before 
>> the
>> onset of the seizure, then pressed a 911 call button. Or a dog that 
>> provided
>> support to someone who had some balance or other issue. But comfort or
>> anchor to reality or what have you are not trained tasks.
>>>
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>
>>
>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Cindy Ray
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:35 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> The failure of a og to make it with a person has not much to do with the
>>> trainer, certified or not. As for service dogs, just what *does*
>> constitute
>>> one really?
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi" <albert at myblindspot.org>
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 1:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>> I would think then we need to qualify and quantify the verbiage  which 
>>> is
>>> being considered for amendment because all to often trainers of guides 
>>> are
>>> being denied access.  What would be a suitable wording which would 1.
>>> protect and ensure that trainers of service animals are included in the
>>> a.d.a., which as you  yourself presented, can be interpreted to prevent
>> such
>>> access unless and until the service animal is being used by a person 
>>> using
>>> the same for the intended purpose?  And what of our peers who use
>> companions
>>> for a diagnosable  condition where a companion animal/service animal is
>>> needed? The manner of the wording at present does not seem to afford 
>>> them
>>> the same protections, or do they?  I think that trainers should be held 
>>> to
>> a
>>> higher measure so people like many of those on this list who got bum 
>>> dogs
>> do
>>> not live through that pain again.  there is something to say for the
>>> consideration of certification  provided that a standard  of national
>>> proportions  could be meaningful.
>>>
>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>> CEO/Founder
>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>> New York, New York  10004
>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>>> is
>>> doing it."
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Steve Johnson
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 2:14 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>> Hi Cindy,
>>>
>>> PWD = People or Persons with disabilities.
>>>
>>> I think that the points being made are very strong, and the 
>>> certification
>>> issue does not broaden as Albert eluded to, but does indeed restrict the
>>> definition of who who could eventually access a place of public
>>> accommodation.
>>>
>>> So, if only a certified trainer, which the points are well-expressed on
>>> this, is allowed to access a place of public accommodation, then 
>>> would'nt
>>> this essentially mean that unless an animal trained by a certified 
>>> entity
>>> could only then access a place of public accommodation?
>>>
>>> There are a lot of frauds out there, and again we are speaking about
>> places
>>> of public accommodation.  The fair housing amendments act already 
>>> provides
>>> for any person to have an emotional support, or even companion animals 
>>> in
>>> Federal assisted housing, and this can also move into private housing
>> where
>>> emotional support animals can be granted access through a request for
>>> reasonable accommodation.  The underlying problem is that these are not
>>> highly trained animals that are specifically trained to provide a
>> functional
>>> support/service for the individual whether it be through a professional
>>> entity or an individual who chooses to self-train.
>>>
>>> I have to disagree with Albert in that his comment that this would 
>>> expand
>>> the coverage of access as it clearly discriminates against those who
>>> self-train and again, I will point out that this language is 
>>> specifically
>>> stated in the ADA.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, if the word certification were deleted from this, then we 
>>> are
>>> where we are at now, and is this a bad thing?
>>>
>>> While this proposed legislation specifically addresses service animals,
>> the
>>> problem herein is that it creates this slippery slope that I mention in
>> that
>>> there will be a push like you have never seen by other groups to expand
>> and
>>> include emotional support, therapy, and companion animals.  Mark my 
>>> word.
>>>
>>> Let's go back to the intent of the ADA, and you will further understand
>> that
>>> this narrows, not expands as these other types of animals are not
>> providing
>>> a service.  A support yes, a service no.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at qwest.net>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>
>>>
>>>> What is PWD?
>>>>
>>>> And you make a good point. Who certifies? If the schools where the 
>>>> people
>>>> train certify them, then what about these independents, particularly
>> those
>>>> who train their own dogs. And, of course, NAC was a certification 
>>>> outfit
>>>> that certified places, but any of us who knows the history of NAC knows
>>>> what
>>>> certification meant for agencies and schools serving the bolind. So why
>>>> bother if you can't certify better than that? Suppose the Guide Dog
>> School
>>>> Association, whose official name I don't remember, certified trainers?
>>>> Would
>>>> they be willing to certify an independent, and would such a person be
>>>> willing to do that (be certified by such a certifying body?)
>>>>
>>>> CL
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "The Pawpower Pack" <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 25, 2009 12:15 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> and who certifies the trainers?
>>>>
>>>> There is no certifying body for dog trainers.  If I want to call
>>>> myself a dog trainer, I can.  There are outfits like CPDT who are
>>>> trying to certify pet dog trainers but it's all voluntary.  The guide
>>>> and service dogs, with the exception of California, may "certify"
>>>> their trainers but it's about as valuable as the paper it's printed on.
>>>>
>>>> California "certifies" it's trainers but frankly, I would hate to see
>>>> an outfit like the California guide dog board become the norm.
>>>>
>>>> I also think it's a step awy from certifying trainers to certifying 
>>>> PWD.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really won, you
>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Windows Live Only: Brisomania at hotmail.com
>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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