[nagdu] ownership

Linda Gwizdak linda.gwizdak at cox.net
Wed Jan 6 19:43:28 UTC 2010 

Thanks, Marion.  I haven't seen California's "White Cane Law" in so long, I 
forget what it says! I do think most states have a law like Florida, though.

What I don't understand is how do the sighted police think a folded up white 
cane looks like Numchucks?! I have seen both and they DO NOT look alike! I 
am in martial arts - Soo Bahk Do,a Korean martial art.

Cheers,

Lyn and Landon
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership


> Linda,
>    Florida statute makes it a second degree misdemeanor to "carry a white 
> cane or a white cane tipped in red in the extended position". This seems 
> to imply, like you state, that it is a crime to impersonate a blind 
> person! (smile) When I had more eyesight (around 1986), I was walking down 
> the road with my cane folded up and in my back pocket when a cop pulled 
> over thinking it was a martial arts weapon! (grin)
>
> Fraternally yours,
> MarionI once was
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>
>
>> Hi guys,
>> I think the "it's illegal to own a guide dog harness" thing comes from 
>> the same thing about non-blind people using white canes with or without 
>> red tips. I don't think there is any actual law that specifically says 
>> that it is unlawful to own a harness or white cane.  I think the law 
>> addresses people owning these things to masquade as a blind person.  The 
>> guide harness and white cane have become symbols to alert people that the 
>> person using these are blind. We all assume that people with these things 
>> are blind just as we think a person in a wheelchair is disabled.  These 
>> are identity symbols as far as I can tell.
>>
>> Lyn and Landon
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 9:04 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>
>>
>>> OK, soap box time.
>>>
>>> I'm getting really sick and tired of the mystique that guide dog schools 
>>> seem to endow to guide dog equipment. There, in short, is none. There's 
>>> no magic in guide dog equipment, and there's nothing illegal about 
>>> owning same. * think it *is* illegal to fraudulently claim a disability 
>>> to sidestep access laws, but the mere owning of guide dog equipment, 
>>> which can be fabricated by any competent harness maker, is completely 
>>> above board, and to state or even imply that its ownership is somehow 
>>> illegal is just ridiculous.
>>> --
>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>
>>>> More or less what I remember, but what about that harness thing.  I 
>>>> remember
>>>> being led to believe that it was illegal for anyone to own a harness 
>>>> who was
>>>> not blind or a service animal user as defined by the ADA is that true?
>>>>
>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one who 
>>>> is
>>>> doing it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:29 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>>
>>>> I have the ownership agreement Marion.
>>>>
>>>> It basically states, I own maxx but not his harness and that is the 
>>>> property
>>>> of GDF. If in the future I decided that I cannot care for maxx and 
>>>> cannot
>>>> find him a home, then I can bring him back to the school.
>>>>
>>>> I think Jeanine Stanley is on here and she should be able to go into it 
>>>> as
>>>> well.  I also get assistance with the school in the way of vet care.
>>>>
>>>> That is how I understand it.
>>>>
>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel 
>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>  From: Marion & Martin<mailto:swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>>>  To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>  Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:11 AM
>>>>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>      Though GDF does provide ownership, there are some strings attached
>>>> that
>>>>  I intend to discuss with them. Since I do not have the ownership 
>>>> agreement
>>>>
>>>>  in front of me, I will withhold my comments concerning the details.
>>>>
>>>>  Fraternally yours,
>>>>  Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>  From: "Julie J" 
>>>> <julielj at windstream.net<mailto:julielj at windstream.net>>
>>>>  To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>  <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>  Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:31 PM
>>>>  Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>
>>>>> GDF does offer ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> For me ownership is an absolute must.  People's views on ownership 
>>>>> vary
>>>>> considerably.  We've discussed it here before and I'm sure it will 
>>>>> come
>>>> up
>>>>> in another 6 months again.  It is one of the topics that we all just
>>>> agree
>>>>> to disagree on.
>>>>>
>>>>> We've discussed financial contributions toward the price of a guide 
>>>>> dog
>>>>> too. I'm still in favor.  Perhaps it's my own personal issues that 
>>>>> make
>>>> me
>>>>> feel uncomfortable  with the idea of not paying for something.  I 
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>> From: "cheryl echevarria"
>>>> <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com<mailto:cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:52 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well I own my dog, I am not borrowing Maxx and giving him back when 
>>>>>> he
>>>>>> retires.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>>
>>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>>> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
>>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>>
>>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>>> ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>>> el.com>>
>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>> From: Albert J
>>>> Rizzi<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:27 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was also presented to us that, and perhaps such was said to drive
>>>>>> others
>>>>>> away from one school or another, but that a blind person should not
>>>>>> expect
>>>>>> to pay anything for a guide. But cheryl, Margo let me know that those
>>>>>> handlers going to seeing eye in fact, for the nominal fee she told me
>>>>>> about,
>>>>>> allows for complete ownership of the guide, where you and I simply 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> loaned the dog, and if push ever came to shove, they could take the
>>>> dog
>>>>>> back
>>>>>> if cause was justified. I am inclined to see the value of 
>>>>>> contributing
>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> some way to the process, to help keep costs down. I myself have seen
>>>> fit
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> actively participate in raising over 75k for the gdf as a way to pay
>>>> for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> privilege of getting a guide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>
>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>> who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From:
>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 7:54 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Margo I totally understand this, since at the Guide Dog Foundation we
>>>> do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> pay anything, and since Albert and I are both newly blind people with
>>>>>> our
>>>>>> first guide dogs, we don't know that other schools charge a price. 
>>>>>> We
>>>>>> didn't and so that many others may not know this either.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>>> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevarriatravel.
>>>> com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/%3Chttp://www.echevarriatravel.com%3cht
>>>> tp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>>
>>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>>> ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>>> el.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echeva
>>>> rriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservati
>>>> ons at echevarriatravel.com>>>
>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>   From: Margo and
>>>>>>
>>>> Arrow<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto
>>>> :margo.downey at verizon.net%3Cmailto:margo.downey at verizon.net>>>
>>>>>>   To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>
>>>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.or
>>>> g%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>   Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:45 AM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Albert, I see nothing wrong with paying something for my dog guide.
>>>>>>   Absolutely nothing.  what is this harsh reality stuff?  I don't
>>>>>> understand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Margo and Arrow
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>   From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>   To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>   Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:52 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also,
>>>>
>>>>>> thank
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are
>>>>>> required
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the
>>>>>> foundation I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>> my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane
>>>>>> skills.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> had no idea.  I also have been reading marching alone and walking
>>>>>> together
>>>>>>> and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book,
>>>> that
>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>> looking forward to reading your other suggestions.  I do realize
>>>> how
>>>>>> far
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women,
>>>>>> gays,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> oh so many others which make up the mosaic  that is our country. I
>>>>
>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> appreciate the advancements  realized for the blind and the
>>>> disabled
>>>>>>> community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how
>>>> much
>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> needs to be done to ensure equality and access.  I have accepted
>>>> my
>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>> to be a force to be reckoned  with to further the efforts of my
>>>>>>> predescesors
>>>>>>> and be a catalyst  to further that effort. I have much to learn,
>>>> and
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from
>>>> the
>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off
>>>> line
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one
>>>>
>>>>>> town
>>>>>>> hall
>>>>>>> at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state.  I am
>>>>
>>>>>> here
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or
>>>>>> disenfranchised
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>> anyone or anything just because  I am blind. I did not accept it
>>>> as
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> gay
>>>>>>> man and I plan to work my blindness as positively  and
>>>> empoweringly
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>> a gay man.  I thank you and do know I value your experience  and
>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>> in this new way I navigate  life. Peace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>> one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money.  The Seeing
>>>>>> Eye
>>>>>>> charges $150 for your first guide from there.  Noah's Assistance
>>>>>> Dogs
>>>>>>> charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog.  Some blind people
>>>> choose
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars.  I do
>>>>
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts
>>>> for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> guide dogs.  Owner trainers financial investments vary
>>>> considerably.
>>>>>> If
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands.
>>>>>> Add in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and
>>>>>> other
>>>>>>> incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on
>>>> top
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> cost of the dog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting
>>>> place,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> individuals are still being denied access.  I'd like to point out
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older
>>>> than
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and those groups still experience discrimination.  It has only
>>>> been
>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> 20
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in
>>>>
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> time.  Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything.
>>>>
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> commend you for  being so diligent about learning.  I really think
>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>> everything you possibly can from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.or
>>>> g/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.org/%3Chttp://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.
>>>> nfb.org/>>>
>>>>>>> especially the older more historical documents will help you
>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past.  I
>>>> think
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the
>>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we do.   We understand what has been tried, what worked and what
>>>>>> didn't.
>>>>>>> I've been legally blind for around 17 years now.  Many of the
>>>> people
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire
>>>>>> life.
>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> are all still learning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of
>>>>>> Independence"
>>>>>>> it's available at the NFB site I linked above.  This article
>>>> helped
>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness
>>>>>> skills
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> living in the real world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as
>>>>
>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog.  I am
>>>> new
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide
>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it
>>>> is
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be,
>>>>>>>> must be determined independently and not by any individual
>>>> school,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the
>>>>>> skill
>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>> sufficient to create a certification  program which would better
>>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification
>>>> has
>>>>>>>> impacted
>>>>>>>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how
>>>> we
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
>>>>>> promising
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> all.  I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I
>>>> do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers
>>>> and
>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education
>>>>>> sufficient
>>>>>>>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective
>>>> arenas.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from,
>>>> but
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores
>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about
>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>> one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap
>>>>
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have
>>>>>> brought
>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>> are my issues as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to
>>>>>> certification,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> rather the implementation of that certification.   As of yet I
>>>> have
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair,
>>>>>> unbiased
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers.  If
>>>> someone
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> convince me that their program for implementing certification
>>>> will
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up.  Until then I'm a
>>>>
>>>>>> "no
>>>>>>>> certification" gal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification
>>>> comes
>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to
>>>>>> "help"
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other
>>>> stupidity.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but
>>>> I
>>>>>> am
>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were.   Agencies
>>>>>> offering
>>>>>>>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness
>>>> services
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> have a good track record.  Really I like the current laws and
>>>> would
>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new
>>>>
>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms
>>>> for
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> JMO, a'course
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a
>>>> scotch.
>>>>>> Well
>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>>> schools, rather then an independent  body comprised of end users
>>>>
>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> professionals from the field?  Anything different would most
>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>>> appear self serving  for those schools to determined who is or
>>>> is
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> certified trainer.  I am not supporting that dogs be certified,
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified
>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference,
>>>> a
>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide
>>>> to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they
>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.
>>>>>> Is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> proper?  I mean there is significant training that goes into a
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that
>>>>>> position?
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be
>>>>>> sufficiently
>>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>>> in areas where public accommodation  as defined under the ADA
>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> afforded?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>>> New York, New York  10004
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained.  She did not train
>>>>>>>>> herself.  If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me
>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work.  Grin!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access
>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>>> for quite some time.  I have known an owner trainer to train the
>>>>
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is
>>>> allowed
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> bring their pets.  In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>>>>>>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the
>>>> word
>>>>>>>>> "certified."  I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>>>>>>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams.  I
>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own
>>>>>> trainers
>>>>>>>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs
>>>> not
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>>>>>>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said.  I do
>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights
>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>>>>>>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really
>>>> won,
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.
>>>> com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:paw
>>>> power4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail
>>>> .com>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Windows Live Only:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotma
>>>> il.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailt
>>>> o:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania
>>>> @hotmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>> t>><
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>> t>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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>>>> info
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>> m>><
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>> m>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>> t>><
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>> t>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>
>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>> m>><
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>> m>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
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>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>> t>><
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>> t>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
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>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizo
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veriz
>>>> o<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veri
>>>> zo%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40v
>>>> erizo>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> n.net<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40<http
>>>> ://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40%3Chttp://
>>>> www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40>>
>>>>>> verizon.net>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>   nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
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>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
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>>>> for
>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotma
>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotm
>>>> a<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hot
>>>> ma%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40
>>>> hotma>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
>>>>>> 40hotmail.com>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
>>>> agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
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>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>> t>>.
>>>>>> org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
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>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org>>
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>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
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>>>> 40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cheryla
>>>> ndmaxx%40hotmail.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.or
>>>> g/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>>
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