[nagdu] ownership
Marion & Martin
swampfox1833 at verizon.net
Thu Jan 7 13:03:38 UTC 2010
Linda,
To answer your question about how police could mistake a folded white
cane for numchucks; They are either ignorant, have nothing better to do, or
both! (smile)
Fraternally yours,
Marion
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
> Thanks, Marion. I haven't seen California's "White Cane Law" in so long,
> I forget what it says! I do think most states have a law like Florida,
> though.
>
> What I don't understand is how do the sighted police think a folded up
> white cane looks like Numchucks?! I have seen both and they DO NOT look
> alike! I am in martial arts - Soo Bahk Do,a Korean martial art.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Lyn and Landon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marion & Martin" <swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>
>
>> Linda,
>> Florida statute makes it a second degree misdemeanor to "carry a white
>> cane or a white cane tipped in red in the extended position". This seems
>> to imply, like you state, that it is a crime to impersonate a blind
>> person! (smile) When I had more eyesight (around 1986), I was walking
>> down the road with my cane folded up and in my back pocket when a cop
>> pulled over thinking it was a martial arts weapon! (grin)
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> MarionI once was
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Linda Gwizdak" <linda.gwizdak at cox.net>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 2:17 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>> I think the "it's illegal to own a guide dog harness" thing comes from
>>> the same thing about non-blind people using white canes with or without
>>> red tips. I don't think there is any actual law that specifically says
>>> that it is unlawful to own a harness or white cane. I think the law
>>> addresses people owning these things to masquade as a blind person. The
>>> guide harness and white cane have become symbols to alert people that
>>> the person using these are blind. We all assume that people with these
>>> things are blind just as we think a person in a wheelchair is disabled.
>>> These are identity symbols as far as I can tell.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Landon
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Buddy Brannan" <buddy at brannan.name>
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 9:04 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>
>>>
>>>> OK, soap box time.
>>>>
>>>> I'm getting really sick and tired of the mystique that guide dog
>>>> schools seem to endow to guide dog equipment. There, in short, is none.
>>>> There's no magic in guide dog equipment, and there's nothing illegal
>>>> about owning same. * think it *is* illegal to fraudulently claim a
>>>> disability to sidestep access laws, but the mere owning of guide dog
>>>> equipment, which can be fabricated by any competent harness maker, is
>>>> completely above board, and to state or even imply that its ownership
>>>> is somehow illegal is just ridiculous.
>>>> --
>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>> Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 2, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Albert J Rizzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> More or less what I remember, but what about that harness thing. I
>>>>> remember
>>>>> being led to believe that it was illegal for anyone to own a harness
>>>>> who was
>>>>> not blind or a service animal user as defined by the ADA is that true?
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org
>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>> who is
>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:29 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the ownership agreement Marion.
>>>>>
>>>>> It basically states, I own maxx but not his harness and that is the
>>>>> property
>>>>> of GDF. If in the future I decided that I cannot care for maxx and
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> find him a home, then I can bring him back to the school.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Jeanine Stanley is on here and she should be able to go into
>>>>> it as
>>>>> well. I also get assistance with the school in the way of vet care.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is how I understand it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/>
>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com>
>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: Marion & Martin<mailto:swampfox1833 at verizon.net>
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:11 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Though GDF does provide ownership, there are some strings
>>>>> attached
>>>>> that
>>>>> I intend to discuss with them. Since I do not have the ownership
>>>>> agreement
>>>>>
>>>>> in front of me, I will withhold my comments concerning the details.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Julie J"
>>>>> <julielj at windstream.net<mailto:julielj at windstream.net>>
>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 5:31 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] ownership
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> GDF does offer ownership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For me ownership is an absolute must. People's views on ownership
>>>>>> vary
>>>>>> considerably. We've discussed it here before and I'm sure it will
>>>>>> come
>>>>> up
>>>>>> in another 6 months again. It is one of the topics that we all just
>>>>> agree
>>>>>> to disagree on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've discussed financial contributions toward the price of a guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> too. I'm still in favor. Perhaps it's my own personal issues that
>>>>>> make
>>>>> me
>>>>>> feel uncomfortable with the idea of not paying for something. I
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "cheryl echevarria"
>>>>> <cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com<mailto:cherylandmaxx at hotmail.com>>
>>>>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 10:52 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I own my dog, I am not borrowing Maxx and giving him back when
>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>> retires.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>>>
>>>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>>>> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>
>>>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>>>> ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>>>> el.com>>
>>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Albert J
>>>>> Rizzi<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org>>
>>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 11:27 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Few: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was also presented to us that, and perhaps such was said to drive
>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>> away from one school or another, but that a blind person should not
>>>>>>> expect
>>>>>>> to pay anything for a guide. But cheryl, Margo let me know that
>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>> handlers going to seeing eye in fact, for the nominal fee she told
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> about,
>>>>>>> allows for complete ownership of the guide, where you and I simply
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> loaned the dog, and if push ever came to shove, they could take the
>>>>> dog
>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>> if cause was justified. I am inclined to see the value of
>>>>>>> contributing
>>>>>
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> some way to the process, to help keep costs down. I myself have seen
>>>>> fit
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> actively participate in raising over 75k for the gdf as a way to pay
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> privilege of getting a guide.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>>
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>
>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the one
>>>>> who
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From:
>>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>> Of cheryl echevarria
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 7:54 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Margo I totally understand this, since at the Guide Dog Foundation
>>>>>>> we
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> pay anything, and since Albert and I are both newly blind people
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>> first guide dogs, we don't know that other schools charge a price.
>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>> didn't and so that many others may not know this either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>>> Independent Contractor
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> www.Echevarriatravel.com<http://www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevar
>>>>> riatravel.com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/<http://www.echevarriatravel.
>>>>> com%3chttp//www.echevarriatravel.com/%3Chttp://www.echevarriatravel.com%3cht
>>>>> tp//www.echevarriatravel.com/>>>
>>>>>>> 1-866-580-5574
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com<m
>>>>> ailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatrav
>>>>> el.com<mailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echeva
>>>>> rriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservations at echevarriatravel.com%3Cmailto:Reservati
>>>>> ons at echevarriatravel.com>>>
>>>>>>> Affiliated as an Independent Contractor with Montrose Travel
>>>>>>> CST-1018299-10
>>>>>>> You can also find me on:
>>>>>>> Facebook: Echevarriatravel.com
>>>>>>> LinkedIn: Cheryl Echevarria
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: Margo and
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Arrow<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto:margo.downey at verizon.net<mailto
>>>>> :margo.downey at verizon.net%3Cmailto:margo.downey at verizon.net>>>
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Users<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.or
>>>>> g%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 01, 2010 12:45 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert, I see nothing wrong with paying something for my dog
>>>>>>> guide.
>>>>>>> Absolutely nothing. what is this harsh reality stuff? I don't
>>>>>>> understand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Margo and Arrow
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 5:52 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for the kind words and for the suggested readings. Also,
>>>>>
>>>>>>> thank
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> for the harsh reality that some of my blind peers in fact are
>>>>>>> required
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> pay for their guides. I never knew that was the case as the
>>>>>>> foundation I
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> got
>>>>>>>> my guide from required nothing of me just that I had strong cane
>>>>>>> skills.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> had no idea. I also have been reading marching alone and walking
>>>>>>> together
>>>>>>>> and draw so much inspiration and determination from that book,
>>>>> that
>>>>>>> I am
>>>>>>>> looking forward to reading your other suggestions. I do realize
>>>>> how
>>>>>>> far
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> civil rights movement has come for the afircan Americans, women,
>>>>>>> gays,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> oh so many others which make up the mosaic that is our country. I
>>>>>
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> appreciate the advancements realized for the blind and the
>>>>> disabled
>>>>>>>> community yet still am lost about understanding the whys of how
>>>>> much
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> needs to be done to ensure equality and access. I have accepted
>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>>> to be a force to be reckoned with to further the efforts of my
>>>>>>>> predescesors
>>>>>>>> and be a catalyst to further that effort. I have much to learn,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> lost much, but not as much as I have gained in seeing life from
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>> perspective that blindness has brought to my life. Perhaps off
>>>>> line
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> talk about my efforts which are well underway to making my county
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> my state the model for technology access one school at a time, one
>>>>>
>>>>>>> town
>>>>>>>> hall
>>>>>>>> at a time and one county at a time, and then state by state. I am
>>>>>
>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> the long haul and refuse to accept being marginalized or
>>>>>>> disenfranchised
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> anyone or anything just because I am blind. I did not accept it
>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> gay
>>>>>>>> man and I plan to work my blindness as positively and
>>>>> empoweringly
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> did in getting others to see me as a man who happened to be gay
>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> a gay man. I thank you and do know I value your experience and
>>>>>>> knowledge
>>>>>>>> in this new way I navigate life. Peace.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>>> one
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 3:37 PM
>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some guide dogs do cost substantial amounts of money. The Seeing
>>>>>>> Eye
>>>>>>>> charges $150 for your first guide from there. Noah's Assistance
>>>>>>> Dogs
>>>>>>>> charges $1,500 for a guide or service dog. Some blind people
>>>>> choose
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> a private trainer which could cost several thousand dollars. I do
>>>>>
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> couple other very small programs that charge substantial amounts
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> guide dogs. Owner trainers financial investments vary
>>>>> considerably.
>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> purchase a dog from a reputable breeder it could cost thousands.
>>>>>>> Add in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cost of health screening tests, equipment, training expenses and
>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> incidentals and you could be looking at thousands of dollars on
>>>>> top
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> cost of the dog.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You also mentioned that the Florida laws are a good starting
>>>>> place,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> individuals are still being denied access. I'd like to point out
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> rights laws for racial minority groups and women are much older
>>>>> than
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and those groups still experience discrimination. It has only
>>>>> been
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>> 20
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> years for the ADA and I think we have made substantial progress in
>>>>>
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> time. Social change isn't going to happen overnight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You admit being new to blindness and not understanding everything.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> commend you for being so diligent about learning. I really think
>>>>>>> reading
>>>>>>>> everything you possibly can from
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfb.org<http://www.nfb.org/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.or
>>>>> g/<http://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.nfb.org/%3Chttp://www.nfb.org%3chttp//www.
>>>>> nfb.org/>>>
>>>>>>>> especially the older more historical documents will help you
>>>>>>> understand
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> blind people have struggled with and overcome in the past. I
>>>>> think
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> help you understand why many of the folks on this list have the
>>>>>>> beliefs
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> we do. We understand what has been tried, what worked and what
>>>>>>> didn't.
>>>>>>>> I've been legally blind for around 17 years now. Many of the
>>>>> people
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> list have been blind much longer than that and some their entire
>>>>>>> life.
>>>>>>> We
>>>>>>>> are all still learning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you can I'd also highly recommend reading "The Nature of
>>>>>>> Independence"
>>>>>>>> it's available at the NFB site I linked above. This article
>>>>> helped
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>>> immensely when I was transitioning from newly acquired blindness
>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> living in the real world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:45 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not sure what costs would ne incurred, as I understand and as
>>>>>
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>>> my experience, there is no cost for securing a guide dog. I am
>>>>> new
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> blindness and assume that most if not all organizations provide
>>>>>>> guides
>>>>>>>>> free
>>>>>>>>> of charge. I agree with you that the certification process if it
>>>>> is
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> be,
>>>>>>>>> must be determined independently and not by any individual
>>>>> school,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> seasoned group of professionals, end users and others with the
>>>>>>> skill
>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>>> sufficient to create a certification program which would better
>>>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>> trained guides for those who need them. I see how certification
>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> impacted
>>>>>>>>> so many other areas professionally, and I am inclined to feel
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> certification would not set anyone back. It would all be in how
>>>>> we
>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>> consumer roup direct that so as to ensure it is empowering and
>>>>>>> promising
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> all. I also do not see how this would impact our taxes since I
>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> believe the certification of mobility instructors and teachers
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> others
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> a cost of those looking for the certification and education
>>>>>>> sufficient
>>>>>>>>> enough to be considered a professional in their respective
>>>>> arenas.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> the state protections in Florida are a good basis to grow from,
>>>>> but
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> recently shared end users are still being denied access to stores
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> transportation. We may need to work on educating all people about
>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> ADA
>>>>>>>>> rather then worrying about trainers being denied access. Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>>> one
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>> Of Julie J
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:10 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will freely admit that the word "certification" scares the crap
>>>>>
>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All the issues that Buddy, Steve, Rox'e, Linda and Marion have
>>>>>>> brought
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>> are my issues as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am like buddy, in that I am not actually opposed to
>>>>>>> certification,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> rather the implementation of that certification. As of yet I
>>>>> have
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> seen
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> any sort of proposed scheme for certification that is fair,
>>>>>>> unbiased
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> would not place a burden on the end user or taxpayers. If
>>>>> someone
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> convince me that their program for implementing certification
>>>>> will
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> cost
>>>>>>>>> more money and will not be biased I'll sign up. Until then I'm a
>>>>>
>>>>>>> "no
>>>>>>>>> certification" gal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose my very serious lack of enthusiasm of certification
>>>>> comes
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> knowledge of previous government and blindness agency efforts to
>>>>>>> "help"
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> blind or "enhance" our opportunities or some such other
>>>>> stupidity.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> old enough to have been around during the times of protests, but
>>>>> I
>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>>> enough to know lots of other blind people who were. Agencies
>>>>>>> offering
>>>>>>>>> accreditation or approval of various aspects of blindness
>>>>> services
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>> have a good track record. Really I like the current laws and
>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>>>> live with the minor inconveniencies of them than come up with new
>>>>>
>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> would quite possibly take us back 50 years in personal freedoms
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> JMO, a'course
>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Albert J Rizzi"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> <albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblinds
>>>>> pot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org<mailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmail
>>>>> to:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at myblindspot.org%3Cmailto:albert at my
>>>>> blindspot.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>>> Users'"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:n
>>>>> agdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 1:44 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lol, yeah sign me up for a self trained dog who can pour a
>>>>> scotch.
>>>>>>> Well
>>>>>>>>>> why
>>>>>>>>>> is there an assumption that certification will be granted by
>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>>>> schools, rather then an independent body comprised of end users
>>>>>
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>> professionals from the field? Anything different would most
>>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>>>>>> appear self serving for those schools to determined who is or
>>>>> is
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> certified trainer. I am not supporting that dogs be certified,
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> trainer, much like others in the field of mobility are certified
>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>>>> either according to national, or as seems to be the preference,
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> state
>>>>>>>>>> standard? Again, I would draw attention to the need for a guide
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> introduced and worked in those everyday environments which they
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> inevitably come up against once they are passed onto a handler.
>>>>>>> Is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> proper? I mean there is significant training that goes into a
>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> prior
>>>>>>>>>> to even venturing out into the public? Am I correct in that
>>>>>>> position?
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> am
>>>>>>>>>> not sure why it would seem odd to want our guides to be
>>>>>>> sufficiently
>>>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>>>> in areas where public accommodation as defined under the ADA
>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> afforded?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed.
>>>>>>>>>> CEO/Founder
>>>>>>>>>> My Blind Spot, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>> 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl.
>>>>>>>>>> New York, New York 10004
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> www.myblindspot.org<http://www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3
>>>>> chttp//www.myblindspot.org/<http://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindsp
>>>>> ot.org/%3Chttp://www.myblindspot.org%3chttp//www.myblindspot.org/>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PH: 917-553-0347
>>>>>>>>>> Fax: 212-858-5759
>>>>>>>>>> "The person who says it cannot be done, shouldn't interrupt the
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> doing it."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Visit us on Facebook LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounce
>>>>> s at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
>>>>> rg%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org%3Cmai
>>>>> lto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>> [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>>>> Of The Pawpower Pack
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 2:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: [buddy-l] A very bad legislative effort
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Albert,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just to clarify; my dog is not self-trained. She did not train
>>>>>>>>>> herself. If you ever find a dog who can train itself, let me
>>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>>>>> It'd save me quite a bit of work. Grin!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Many owner trainers actually don't really begin public access
>>>>>>> training
>>>>>>>>>> for quite some time. I have known an owner trainer to train the
>>>>>
>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>> work on streets and in places where the general public is
>>>>> allowed
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> bring their pets. In some cities such as Portland Oregon, dogs
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> allowed on pubtrans.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't appose giving training staff the right to bring pups in
>>>>>>>>>> training into places of public accommodation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are two problems I have with this law, the first is the
>>>>> word
>>>>>>>>>> "certified." I think it opens up a huge can of worms, and is a
>>>>>>>>>> slippery slope from certifying trainers to certifying teams. I
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>> it self-serving to allow the programs to certify their own
>>>>>>> trainers
>>>>>>>>>> and also as an owner trainer I would rather that the programs
>>>>> not
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> involved in certifying my dog.
>>>>>>>>>> My second issue with this legislation is as Marion said. I do
>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>> think the ADA which is a law written to protect the civil rights
>>>>>
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> persons with disabilities is the place to address the rights of
>>>>>>>>>> largely non-disabled trainers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rox and the Kitchen Bitches
>>>>>>>>>> Bristol (retired), Mill'E SD. and Laveau Guide Dog, CGC.
>>>>>>>>>> "Struggle is a never ending process. Freedom is never really
>>>>> won,
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> earn it and win it in every generation."
>>>>>>>>>> -- Coretta Scott King
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.
>>>>> com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com<mailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:paw
>>>>> power4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail.com%3Cmailto:pawpower4me at gmail
>>>>> .com>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Windows Live Only:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotma
>>>>> il.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com<mailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailt
>>>>> o:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania at hotmail.com%3Cmailto:Brisomania
>>>>> @hotmail.com>>>
>>>>>>>>>> AIM: Brissysgirl Yahoo: lillebriss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>> info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>>> t>><
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>>> t>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>> info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>>> m>><
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>>> m>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>>> t>><
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>>> t>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>>> m>><
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstrea
>>>>> m>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>>> t>><
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>>> t>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40verizo
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veriz
>>>>> o<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40veri
>>>>> zo%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40v
>>>>> erizo>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> n.net<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40<http
>>>>> ://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40%3Chttp://
>>>>> www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/margo.downey%40>>
>>>>>>> verizon.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet
>>>>> .or<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfb
>>>>> net.or%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://ww
>>>>> w.nfbnet.or>>
>>>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotma
>>>>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotm
>>>>> a<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hot
>>>>> ma%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40
>>>>> hotma>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
>>>>>>> 40hotmail.com>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
>>>>> agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot<
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot%
>>>>> 3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspo
>>>>> t>>.
>>>>>>> org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>>
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org%3Cmailto:na
>>>>> gdu at nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/n
>>>>> agdu_nfbnet.org%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotma
>>>>> il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
>>>>> 40hotmail.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cheryla
>>>>> ndmaxx%40hotmail.com%3Chttp://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.or
>>>>> g/cherylandmaxx%40hotmail.com>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstream.
>>>>> net<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40windstr
>>>>> eam.net>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizo
>>>>> n.net<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40
>>>>> verizon.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org<mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org<http://www.nfbnet.or
>>>>> g/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%40hotma
>>>>> il.com<http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cherylandmaxx%
>>>>> 40hotmail.com>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/albert%40myblindspot.
>>>>> org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/buddy%40brannan.name
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/linda.gwizdak%40cox.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nagdu:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/swampfox1833%40verizon.net
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list