[nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: EXTERNAL: Puppy raising

Tamara Smith-Kinney tamara.8024 at comcast.net
Fri Jul 30 19:01:36 UTC 2010 

Oh! Guess I was just whipping stuff out and thought I was saying what I
thought I was saying.  /smile/

Asking permission wouldn't prevent Mitzi from being attacked, of course.
That was how I approached access while she was in training, especially in
the earlier phases of her socialization, which involved exposing her to as
many different types of environments as possible as she became ready.  Where
I was living then, the neighborhood was very dog friendly, so there was
never any real issue.  By the time we went far enough afield that someone
questioned her status, she was training in harness and was kind of an
apprentice, learning on the job.  /smile/

A law won't prevent attacks, of course.  But having my guide dog in training
-- as well as my guide dog now -- covered under the Guide Dog Protection Act
would, I hope, have provided me some recourse if it had happened.  Now that
she's a guide dog, it covers here with no gray area.

There are places where I *didn't* ask once we had moved beyond the familiar
shops around our apartment.  For instance, when I took her to the mall, I
didn't make arrangements ahead of time.  We went and observed and did some
walking around in the main areas, took a look at the food court, etc.  The
next time I took her in harness with some friends, so we walked around and
even got goodies at the food court while I kept a close eye on her
inquisitive poodleness.  /smile/

As for having to show ID, whether for a GDIT or a GD, I'm against it!  As an
owner-trainer, I've never had any such thing.  Not even a green vest.
/grin/  But I still needed to accomplish the same tasks with my pup that the
GDB puppy raisers do.  And that involves lots and lots of exposure to the
sorts of environments where the dog will be working.

Does that make sense?  I'm wondering a little if we're using slightly
different definitions of "puppy" or "raising" or "training."  In the puppy
raising phase, as I experienced it and from what I've learned from puppy
raisers for various programs, you do a lot of regular ground work at home,
but you also take the pup with you pretty much everywhere you go.  That's
what the dog will be doing in its working life -- being in the human world.
The puppy raising phase is also a training phase, preparing the pup for its
future training as a guide dog.  Well, with programs who have different
staff for different tasks, the lines are more clearly drawn between puppy
raising and guide dog training.  But the work the raisers do with the pups
is also training, the foundation of that all-important etiquette our dogs
need.  It helps an awful lot to give the pup as much exposure and
conditioning as possible early on and throughout puppy hood.  In fact, I
plan to start with an 8 to 12-week old puppy next time, for that reason.  I
plan to start with riding the bus and exposure to stores and other such
high-stimulus, high-distraction environments while the dog is still small
and shy and wanting protection from mummy.  /smile/  Well, I also plan for
Mitzi to be around and working, so that it can learn from her.

Hope that makes a bit more sense. /grin/

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 10:28 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL:Re: EXTERNAL: Puppy raising

Tami, 
Somewhat you are. I don't understand how a law v. asking permission would
keep Mitsy from being attacked while you were training her? People who will
let their dogs attack don't much care what the laws say. Also, the way you
wrote it, it does sound like you wouldn't want her to be attacked while she
was being trained but that it would be acceptable now that she's a working
guide. I know that isn't what you mean of course, it was just not what you
said. 
What interference did you get from people on the bus? 
Again, I still am not getting why laws for puppies in training are needed.
Maybe I'm especially dense or we'll have to just agree to disagree?

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Tamara Smith-Kinney
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2010 8:25 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Subject: EXTERNAL:Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising

Rebecca,

Well, ultimately, you need to take your youngster in the places it will be
working to teach it proper etiquette and to familiarize it with those
surroundings.  You can pracitce foundation skills and develop some
familiarity with similar settings that are pet-friendly.  I spent some time
with Mitzi in outdoor café areas around our old neighborhood before I ever
took her into a café or restaurant.  Even then it was a coffee shop, and I
went in long enough to work with her while we ordered, then we came straight
back out to the outdoor seating where we worked some more on lying down
under the table and such while she was still very excited from her big
adventure and all those smells from inside the shop.

Sill, even by that time, I had quite a bit of time and money invested in the
little beast.  I would not want to be without recourse if some vicious cur
tied into her while we were training.

There are some milieus where simply asking doesn't really work, though.
Like riding the bus.  Sooner or later, you have to take the dog on the bus
to teach it how to behave on the bus.  Stuff like that.  It may be a matter
of personal definition, but even though Mitzi was doing some limited
guiding, I would never consider her out of training until we rode the bus.
Also, we needed to ride the bus to places to work on other facets of guide
dog training...  And I had to learn to manage the dog on the bus, as well.
So we went a couple of times with her out of harness, me with cane, and I
let her become familiar with the bus, the movement, the people, all that,
and I was able to work on teaching her "under" and learning how to stuff her
poodliness under the seat at the same time, etc., etc.  It wasn't in my
plan, but we also got to learn to deal with the hefty amount of interference
from other passengers involved in just getting on the bus and sitting
down...  Good grief!

Even when I started taking her into regular restaurants in harness, she was
still definintely in training.  I would ask and explain to the staff,
especially when they questioned her status as a guide dog.  She was, in
fact, guiding by then, so I had some ground to stand on, but she wasn't
trained, in my opinion, because she hadn't learned yet how to behave
properly in restaurants...

Am I making any sense at all?  It seemed to me as we learned to work in more
advanced settings that training in these places mostly involved working with
Mitzi to keep her focused and on her "indoor" behavior in a stimulus rich
environment...  Sights! Smells! Sounds! People! Kids! Stuff!  It all drives
any prior training clean out of a young dog's head.  /smile/  It causes
young poodles to positively levitate.  /grin/  While wriggling.  You can do
obedience exercises at home 24 hours a day every day, but the first trip
into the grocery store will still be a lot of work just overcoming the
smells.  Then, at some point, you have to suck it up and teach your dog to
go past the meat counter without insanity.  /grin/

When your dog can guide you past the meat counter, you're doing good.  When
she can guide you past the meat counter, then sit quietly while you order
meat, that's when you know there's hope! /lol/  

As for protections for guide dogs in training -- well, the programs have a
lot invested in those pups even by the time they hit the ground.  An
owner-trainer may not have money invested in breeding lines and vet care and
staff to work with puppy raisers, but an owner-trainer tends to have a much
more limited budget, too.  The percentage of available funds invested in
that one dog gets pretty high pretty quick.  The time expenditure is pretty
hefty, too, way more than one would spend on a sweet pet.  Having no
recourse against some yo-yo with an aggressive untrained dog that ruins your
guide dog -- or worse -- is just beyond thinking about!  In Oregon, the law
is not as strong as it is in other states, but it does cover guide dogs in
training.  Whew!  Not that I have any wish to ever find out how that would
work in the course of an owner-trained guide.

Tami Smith-Kinney

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Pickrell, Rebecca M (TASC)
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 8:23 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] EXTERNAL: Puppy raising

Hi Meghan. The way you explain the leaving and coming back makes sense.
You're teaching a very defined skill, unlike with parents who teach "how
to be a good person" which is very different. In your situation, you're
trying to stop the dog from barking and you reintroduced the situation
quickly so the good behavior was reinforced. 
My problem with the "just leave if the dog acts up" is that it teaches
the dog that if it is just tired of working, all it need do is act up.
Your explamation sounds like it teaches the correct behavior v. the
incorrect one. In fairness, this can be very difficult to keep in mind. 
I'm still not sure why service dogs in training need the rights that
guide dog users do. Your thoughts? I guess I don't understand why asking
for permission and sticking to dog-friendly places wouldn't be enough? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2010 10:36 AM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: EXTERNAL:[nagdu] Puppy raising

Hi Meghan.
I would be extremely interested to hear more about your puppy-raising
experiences.  You have a guide dog, too, don't you?  How does that work?

Or are you between dogs?Tell us all about your puppy!
Tracy



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